Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 All right, we'll come back to the audience podcast. I'm your host Craig Hewitt from cast dose it's episode. I'm joined by Ross Wynn from podcast insights, Ross. How's it going?
Speaker 0 00:00:16 Hey, Greg. Thanks for, thanks for having me doing good.
Speaker 1 00:00:18 Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. So, uh, for, for those out there who haven't run across podcast insights, I think it is kind of the go to a blog or a site online for a lot of things, kind of informational know how and kind of how to, uh, about podcasting, um, Ross. Is there, uh, is there any other way you would kind of describe, uh, what you guys do?
Speaker 0 00:00:42 Yeah, that's basically it it's, it's how to start, grow and monetize a podcast. And it's really probably 80, 90% is just focused on beginners. So real simple stuff. How to upload a podcast, you know, there's guides obviously on how to start and where to go kind of step one and two, basically,
Speaker 1 00:01:00 I wanted to touch on that cause we talk a lot about that internally, as far as like our content and a lot of our content is geared towards beginners as well. I think because beginners maybe need more help to get their show started. Right. Because podcasting is kind of just complicated relative to like starting a blog. But also maybe it's easier for us to talk about like, I don't know. Why, why do you think that just in general, maybe not even on your site, like there's so much more content out there for just the beginning part and maybe not as much for how to really grow and monetize your podcast.
Speaker 0 00:01:33 Yeah, no, I think, well, I was actually just talking to someone about how the, just the ecosystem itself is complicated. Just the way you, you have to submit to different directories, but then some apps will use the Apple podcast directory and some don't and you know, it's, it's pretty complicated to figure out exactly that whole world when you're first getting started. And you know, I know you and you and me, we understand it, but when you just have an idea and you want to start a podcast, none of that is even as even a thought. And yeah, I think, I just think that, you know, podcasting is just becoming like, you know, it's becoming more popular, we just passed a million podcasts and yeah, it's just as, as more people listen, I think more people want to want to create them. So I think that big tent is just always useful.
Speaker 1 00:02:22 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the risks that, that, that we see is there's a ton of people that start podcasts and then they get 20 episodes in and say, I have 200 listeners, this is not worth my time. And so I think we try to put, we are trying to put more and more resources behind not just getting started, but like, okay, now that you're started, like how do you tie this back into your business? How do you monetize your show, which we're going to talk about later and how do you kind of fit it in with the other stuff you're doing to make it, I'll say an air quotes, like worth your time or worth your company's time or your brand's time. Because I think that's really like from a longevity perspective, the important thing that a lot of people probably don't really get nailed, I think, yeah. I agree.
Speaker 0 00:03:07 I think a big, big part of it too, is that people don't always kind of think through the process in the beginning, like for instance, you need to make sure that you are able to podcast for more than 20 episodes, you know, so that you can hypothetically have content for a hundred or 200 episodes and certain topics just don't always lend themselves to, to do that. So just, just one kind of aspect of the planning.
Speaker 1 00:03:34 Hmm. Yeah. We, we talked about, uh, kind of monetization. We touched on monetization and I know that on, on your site that affiliates and affiliate relationships and come full disclosure, affiliate relationships with Casto is included in that is, is kind of a part of your monetization strategy. And of course I can podcasting there's there's ads, there's paid content that you can do. Uh, but affiliate content and affiliate relationships, I think is, is a popular one in podcasting. Um, how do you see podcasters that do this well kind of implementing affiliate content and relationships in their shows?
Speaker 0 00:04:17 Yes, I don't, I don't know if people are gonna maybe like this answer, but I think the key is to have a, a website and I'm a big fan of WordPress. So I would, I would recommend a WordPress website just because you can, you know, at a, at a plugin in order to create a link, that's easy to say and share for instance, and there's a handful of those out there, but I think, think having a place to send people so that they can, they can learn more. And, you know, you might, you might just mention something in passing on a podcast, but you can send them to a full blog post about what you've talked about and they can, it's a lot easier to read and click and, you know, see images of stuff, whatever you can provide a lot more, a lot more resources and value on a website. So I think that's kind of in my, in my opinion, a crucial aspect of affiliate marketing
Speaker 1 00:05:09 And kind of bridging that gap between like, we're on the podcast. Now people are gonna listen to this, maybe not driving in their car because nobody goes to work anymore, but like walking the dog or going for a run or something like that. And then getting those listeners back to your website, like, what are some things that either you do or you've seen other kind of savvy marketers or content creators do to, to bridge that gap between like a listener on the go and engaging back with your brand on your website?
Speaker 0 00:05:37 Yeah. I also have on kind of another, another thing to add. It doesn't have to be the first thing, but, but an email list kind of ties in well with that. And that's what I've seen a lot of people do well is I'll say, Hey, go to my, go to my website, to sign up for my email list, to get, say a, a free guide or some resources, or I offer like a free email based course for instance, and that, that tends to work well. So it kind of is a good way to drive people back to your site and then subsequently to your email list. And then from there, they, you can kind of, you have that one to one relationship, similar to a podcast where you can send them messages to let them know about new episodes or about new blog posts or other, you know, services or products that you want to promote kind of all, all ties together. So I think, I think that's kind of the big one is the, is the email list on top of the website,
Speaker 1 00:06:35 We talked about email marketing a bit in a previous episode, but would love to hear kind of your, your setup and kind of tech stack or approach to that'll think from like lead capture on the site to email marketing and a lot of those tools that you use there.
Speaker 0 00:06:50 As far as the email marketing platform, I use convert kit and I've been with them for several years and works. It works great. I haven't like really compared a whole lot of them, but you know, it, it does the job. It's easy to, easy to use. And I have an opt in right on my homepage so that I can just send people, say, Hey, go to podcast insights and sign up for the email series. They don't have to search around for it or remember a special URL or something. So I think, I think something like that, or maybe in a, in a menu bar, you have a, you know, a link to sign up for your email list, make it easy to find. So people don't have to hunt for it. And as far as I also use a service called optin monster to create opt in boxes and pages and popups and things. So I, uh, I just think they're one of the best I tested out a ton of them years ago and, and they were the only one that didn't have been on random issues and stuff. So I use, I use that and kind of tie optin monster into convert kit. And then, and then from there, uh,
Speaker 1 00:07:55 Is the, the kind of like, um, incentive or the, the opt in kind of reward that you're offering people, the, the email course that you mentioned before.
Speaker 0 00:08:06 Yeah, that's the, that's the main one. I also offer some like comparison guides and maybe like a podcast starter kit on equipment. It's just a, just a real simple PDF that kind of gives someone something they can like take away after reading, reading a post. So nothing, nothing like overly complicated really, but the email course is definitely the main one.
Speaker 1 00:08:29 Gotcha. Gotcha. Kind of talking about other, other things that you are, we do kind of on our sites. You know, the podcasts that you run in this podcast is one part of a lot of other things that we do for our brand and that we do for marketing. And I think that's true for a lot of people. There are a lot of people that just have a podcast and it's kind of a standalone thing, but there are a lot of people for, you know, their church or their political organization or their company or their nonprofit or brand that the podcasts, like kind of just one piece of it. Um, how do you think about that, that your podcasts kind of one piece of the rest of the stuff you do and kind of, how do you make decisions around, like what is in a podcast and what isn't a blog post and what is it an email?
Speaker 0 00:09:14 Yeah. So for me, I keep it pretty simple. I'm kind of a, a website and blog first, and then the podcast is essentially like a repurposed version of blog posts where I kind of can expand in my own words on things, but it's basically the same content and that's just one approach. I know other people will maybe interview a customers or, or, you know, get testimonials or there's kind of lots of, lots of fun things I've seen with different brands start doing, you know, telling stories around how their brand is just kind of one part of, uh, you know, the customer's journey or, or process
Speaker 1 00:09:54 Has, has that kind of place where podcasting fits into your content always been the case or has, has that evolved over time?
Speaker 0 00:10:02 Um, it didn't it, yeah, I didn't start with the podcast. I started with the written stuff. Cause my background is really in, in online marketing and SEO and paid advertising, all that kind of stuff that, that falls around written word. And then the podcast was just was, I mean, I'm, I'm talking about podcasting, so it was clear that I needed, I needed one, um, to kind of make it more, I dunno, legitimate, I guess, but, uh, I think that's
Speaker 1 00:10:31 Good point. Cause we were the same way. We had a previous show to this that never really got any traction. It was kind of like what you're talking about before is we just didn't think about, okay, what are we going to do that we can talk about every week for ever? And, and so we just kind of got off on the wrong foot there with our first podcast. And then this podcast really started at the beginning of this year of 2020. And you know, cast had been a company at that point for two and a half years and, and a podcasting company. And so I think we should have done it better and sooner, but I think it's maybe for everybody out there who hasn't started a podcast yet, or is just getting started, like don't beat yourself up too much about it. There there's always time. And like today is the best day to start a podcast and tomorrow is the next best day. Maybe
Speaker 0 00:11:19 You're not alone too. Cause when I first started the website three about three years ago, a lot of podcasting companies didn't didn't have podcasts either. So it was, it was kind of surprisingly common. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:11:32 Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. You, you do some repurposing of your content of, for, for your podcast. We do some of that. Um, we've just come off kind of a, we're not doing in seasons, what we're doing and kind of themes, I guess. And we kind of run in themes of, of interviews and then episodes where it's just me talking about a topic. And I talked about email marketing oil back in kind of recording, good audio. And a lot of those monologue episodes for me have been repurposed blog content from our most popular blog posts. And so that's cool to hear that that has worked well for you. And it's, I think we've gotten really good feedback from, from listeners saying like, Hey, this was really helpful to hear somebody talk through, you know, these five things that you need to do to record really great audio, um, and people to take a lot away from that. I think, I think part of it is almost just like cognitive that if they hear someone say it, they process and retain the information differently than if they just like skim a blog post and don't really consume the whole thing. I don't know. Do you feel that?
Speaker 0 00:12:35 Yeah, definitely not. I mean, I know that like some people will, might read something really in depth, but you're, you're definitely right. If they hear it, it probably sinks in more, but also I think that they can be different audiences too. And that's what I've, I've found quite a bit is that, you know, some people will read, some people will listen and you could probably add YouTube in there. Some people will watch a video and there's not as much overlap as you would think between those different platforms.
Speaker 1 00:13:03 Yeah. Yeah. One thing I'd like to kind of just get your take on is, is kind of like where, where we are in, in podcasts here. I mean, it's not a new medium at this point, but it is relatively new compared to something like blogging or like conventional print media, but, but like where do you, where do you feel like we are in the life cycle of, of podcasting? Um, and like where do you think it's going in the next couple of years, get out your crystal ball and let's see, that's a good pressure.
Speaker 0 00:13:32 Like I now I've been following all the Spotify news too with them buying up different companies and it kind of makes it more, more up in the air. I feel like, but I think it's, it's still really early. And as far as you know, I mean, I don't know blogging has been around for what, 20 plus years or something and podcasting, even though it has been around for a long time, it's it still feels really new. It doesn't feel like it says as mature as a lot of those other platforms, but as far as far as predictions, I don't know. I don't know if I'm a no, no worries. No worries.
Speaker 1 00:14:11 You mentioned that like a, the Spotify stuff makes things more uncertain. Um, what, what do you mean with that and why do you think that's the case?
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Yeah, I just think because as kind of different different companies sort of become their own walled gardens in a sense. And it, it kind of reminds me of like a, I don't know, TV networks or, or how you have to go on Amazon prime to get certain shows and Netflix for other ones. And I don't, I don't know. It's kinda hard to see if, if that sort of ecosystem is going to work well with podcasting or if, or if people are just going to, you know, it feels like people just use one, one app to listen. And I don't know if that's true or not, but that's, that's how I at least, uh, I don't, I don't switch back and forth. So if something's only on Spotify and I don't use their app for podcasting, I probably won't even think about it or find it. And you know, it won't, it's just not top of mind. So it'll be, it'll be interesting to see, you know, if people kind of their, their habits, if they, if they're willing to switch back and forth or if people are just gonna kind of stick to one, one place.
Speaker 1 00:15:28 Yeah, it is interesting. We've had a lot of people companies in the space come and say, we're going to be the Netflix of podcasting or any kind of these platform approaches. I feel like. And yeah, I don't feel like a lot of that is healthy for, for listeners, which is really like, what is Anne going to end up driving content creators and other companies like ours that are supporting the industry, um, you know, listeners adopting the technology and consuming content there and doing that easily is what's going to make the medium successful and folks that are wanting to kind of segment that more and more. I feel like are kind of impeding that progress. Um, I do agree that like for video, everything is on YouTube and that makes it really easy. So like maybe a winner, a single place would be, would be the easiest. Um, but, but I think that would have been Apple podcasts, but they certainly are losing ground these days.
Speaker 0 00:16:29 Yeah. And it's funny, cause you mentioned YouTube and today is we're recording. There's some antitrust things going on in the U S and you know, if, what if YouTube got broken up and split off and then, and then Google had to compete with them and there might be another platform eventually. So it's interesting kind of to, I don't know, see, follow along and see what, see what happens. But
Speaker 1 00:16:53 Yeah, somebody put it the other day, he said, I don't know where this is going to go, but it's a fun place to be, you know, for businesses like ours and for content creators to be participating in the medium and kind of adjusting as we go. I think it's a lot of fun to say, this is what it is say. I have no idea what it's going to be two or three years from now, but, but we're here and we're going to be, you know, participating in adopting and adapting as, as things go. I think it's really cool to be in an industry like this. Um, yeah, I feel very fortunate. You mentioned the, uh, the kind of free email course. Um, and then I know you have kind of a more thorough and robust course on, on podcasting. I would love to hear kind of how, how that came about and kind of what that looks like now. Yeah. So the, the email course,
Speaker 0 00:17:37 That's a great question about how it came about. Um, I read a ton, so I'm sure I saw some, uh, you know, someone do something mentioned something about online or email courses kind of, kind of ran with that, but I thought it would be a good, a good way to kind of, kind of give people a little bit of content every, every day or every couple of days and not overwhelm them with here's the 30 things you need to do to start a podcast, but let's just focus on your topic today. And then, you know, a couple days later it's, it's had a, had a record. So it really lets people kind of focus in on that smaller topic of, uh, you know, instead of the whole podcasting thing, which can be quite a bit, I think at times. Yeah. And I actually created a, a course about building a WordPress website for your podcast and it's, it's focused on just people who are like brand new beginners, don't know, you know, how to install or what a, what a server is or anything like that. So it's really just designed to get people to build that website so that they can kind of do that stuff. I talked to her earlier about an email list, offer affiliate products and have written content that they can be found through SEO, Google, stuff like that. So that's, um, that's the course that I, that I have now, and I do plan on creating a bigger kind of podcasting course, but that's, that's still in the works actually. So.
Speaker 1 00:19:16 Gotcha. And, um, how, like for the, the course you have now kind of how many modules, or how long would folks expect kind of consuming that today?
Speaker 0 00:19:25 Um, you could probably go through it and in a few days, if you just kind of went through it quickly, it's, it's broken up pretty, pretty small. So I, you know, I mentioned, I talked about how to sign up for a, a web host and then how to get WordPress installed. And I go through kind of a beginner option and then more of a, an advanced option for people. And then I go through how to install plugins and what plugins I recommend. And I've tested probably thousands at this point. So a lot, a lot of research behind that, but yeah, just ones, the ones that I recommend for beginners, most of them are free so that it's easy to get started without investing a ton. And then I usually try to give options though, you know, if you want the free option or if you want the paid option, that might be a little better, easier to use, try to give a, not too many options, but you know, maybe two and then kind of how to connect your podcast and make sure you can embed your, your player, stuff like that. So I have a few kind of few different ways. I know there's a lot of, a lot of methods, I guess, these days that you can, you can do that. But the goal is just to make it as easy as possible for people to get that stuff up.
Speaker 1 00:20:41 We see a lot of young folks coming in to saying like, I want a podcast, but I, no idea. I have no idea how to do any of this. I don't know what a feed is. I just want to publish to Apple podcasts. And yeah, I mean, I think we say a lot of times like education and I mean, all of ours is free for sure. We have like a whole big old, huge course. That's, that's entirely free is the key, I think for enabling a lot of people to get started with podcasting. So kudos to you for kind of taking it one step further and showing them like how to build a website and actually kind of have a place for your podcast that you know, that you can go do other stuff with, you know, whatever that means for people. Because I think it means something different for everybody. I'm like what they put the purpose for their show is, and, and the other kind of things they want to do. And yeah, I mean, I agree WordPress is great because it's really extensible in any kind of direction. You want to take it,
Speaker 0 00:21:32 Just having a website to just expand on that, makes it a lot easier to share your podcast and your episodes, because we're still sort of in that Apple versus Google thing. So if you go on our podcast and share an episode, potentially half your audience, can't listen with a click, they'll have to go search for it. And it's a whole thing. So I think just having, having a website to send people to is just easier for that whole, that whole process.
Speaker 1 00:22:02 Yeah. Um, so Ross of the, the students you have go through kind of your course and that are on your email list that you kind of correspond with. I would, I would love to hear for folks who want to like monetize their podcast directly through ads, um, are they joining, uh, like a dynamic ad insertion platform, like a megaphone or are folks going out and like selling the ad and recording it and kind of statically inserting it into the episode themselves? Like, what are you seeing for kind of beginner to intermediate podcasters?
Speaker 0 00:22:35 Yeah. For the big dinners it's I don't even think they, they qualify for most of those top platforms, you know, to be the top 1% or half a percent or something. So they're definitely reaching out to companies that are a good, good fit with their podcasts and their audience and, you know, creating them kind of a on demand for, for those advertisers, a little more manual process, but you can definitely get a lot more revenue, I guess, for, for the size of your audience.
Speaker 1 00:23:09 Yeah. No, I think, I think we see a lot of the same stuff that actually, I think folks can sell ads directly to companies that are aligned well with their, their brand and their audience and make a lot more than they could on a CPM basis.
Speaker 0 00:23:22 Yeah. Because what they average 20, $20 or so. So if you have a thousand downloads, you're only getting a hundred dollars an episode. Yeah. That's not, not quite enough to run a business at least. I mean, you might, might cover some costs, but
Speaker 1 00:23:36 Yeah. As somebody who kind of, I'm gonna say lives in breeds, but, but works in the podcasting space all the time. I'd love to hear. Are there people you see doing like really cool stuff that you think listeners of the show should check out, like people that are creating content in a really interesting or cool way people monetizing their shows really in an interesting way or anything like that. I'd love to hear kind of people that you look up to maybe.
Speaker 0 00:24:04 Yeah, no, that's, that's a good question. I, I, I feel like a lot of, a lot of the people I, I tend to follow are sort of in the marketing space. So they, they tend to monetize through through courses and kind of other maybe services or memberships that they offer. And actually, it was kind of thinking about this the other day, because, you know, you might, you might read a report about how the podcast advertising industry is X amount of dollars, but none of the, kind of more private core sales and stuff are reported in that. And I, I would have to imagine that it's, it's gotta be a massive amount that just isn't reflected in any kind of public data, but it's not. Yeah. That's, those are the ones that I, um, kind of see a lot, I guess that's not terribly unique,
Speaker 1 00:24:54 But no, I mean, I think that's, I think that's a really good point. I mean, especially right now with like with COVID and the world, frankly, that we're living in. I think a lot of people are searching for connections with other people. A lot of us are doing it online. Um, a lot of that is going through podcasting, but a lot of that is going through membership sites of, of a lot of different flavors, right. I mean, anything from, you know, mentioning like church groups, religious organizations, political groups, um, you know, local like rotary clubs and for folks in the U S like, uh, and not just like online business membership sites, but, but really like brick and mortar folks taking some of their value online. I was talking to the, one of the founders of member space, which is a big kind of membership platform. And they said that they've seen just enormous growth from conventional companies and brands bringing at least some of their value online, even things like gyms, you know, nobody can go to the gym or nobody wants to go to the gym right now, but, but gyms are taking their content online and teaching remotely and things like that. So, yeah, I think that's a good point that maybe all of us should think about how we can give some kind of virtual aspect to what we're doing.
Speaker 0 00:26:09 Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, um, especially right, especially now that, you know, it's, it's the only, the only option and people still crave that community and, you know, interaction and stuff. So it's, it's definitely the time to at least make it possible for your, your community and audience. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:26:28 Yeah. Cool. Ross was really great to catch up, uh, and kind of get your take on, on a lot of these things, you know, marketing and community, uh, and what folks are doing with their podcasts, uh, for folks who want to check out more about kind of what you all do, where is the best place, just go to podcast
Speaker 0 00:26:44 Insights.com is where you can kind of learn everything about how to start, grow, and monetize a podcast. And, you know, you feel free to sign up for the, uh, email course, if that sounds useful or, um, just browse around, there's a search bar.
