Speaker 1 00:00:06 Matt, I'm curious, did anything happen over the last year that changed your perspective as a creator or a podcaster? Was there anything that happened that was just like a bellwether moment for you? You're like, wow, this changes my approach, my way of thinking.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 You came right at me with that question. I <laugh> now, now I have to think about it. I mean, I think for creators, you know, in the podcasting space, it just keeps going up. And, and that has been a pleasant surprise. There's, there was so much I felt like, I don't wanna say doom and gloom, but we covered it with the decentralized series of, uh, Spotify. Like, what's Spotify gonna do? What's YouTube gonna do? We saw Facebook come and go in a second and I was looking at, man, which big tech company is, is going to try to take this over with more force than, than what Spotify has done over the last couple years. And I'm happy to say that none of them did <laugh> and, you know, that was from a independent creator side. And of course I'm biased cuz we're a podcast hosting company.
Speaker 2 00:01:12 We depend on the RSS feed. I was pleasantly surprised to that. Uh, no one really claimed the RSS feed and that was exciting. And then paired that with all of the movement happening with podcasting 2.0 and a lot of the, the technology that air quotes technology around RSS that they're doing for creators, not even, I'm not even talking about like the payments and stuff that, that we've talked about on the show before, but just extending the RSS and giving these features out to, uh, an open source movement that, uh, helps enable these features for hosts like us and our peers to build awesome solutions for creators. And then there's like this third thing where you start looking at, I mean, are we in a recession? We're in a recession, we're not in a recession. There's a looming recession. Like I don't, I don't know where we're at financially, but I haven't seen a major impact in, in podcasting and audio yet.
Speaker 2 00:02:08 And I wonder if that's because the big money sees podcasting as very little money. So that big money is still coming into our space, uh, fairly, you know, uh, at an even pace versus let's say maybe film and television that might be getting cutbacks. I don't know that industry, so I couldn't even tell you. But there's still gains to be made, uh, for creators, you know, in that space, creating their indie shows, advertising, sponsorships, direct, uh, subscriptions. I still think that we're, we're on the, uh, up into the right as we head into 2023, at least in the audio and podcasting space. And I'm, I'm pretty excited about it.
Speaker 1 00:02:44 It's interesting what you said about it not being seen as big money. I had that conversation with Jenny Turner Hall on an episode of Audience when we covered the series. She executive produced called A Simple Her Story. And she's someone who has worked a little bit in television, I think, and she has worked, she's worked for Marvel making some podcasts for them. So she's worked in the big money space and she talked about, obviously there's challenges that come with not having a big budget or not having a big backer, but there's also freedom in that. And I think you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't say this industry is recession proof a year from now. <laugh>. I could be proven very wrong, uh, if I said that, but I do think it is a little bit safer than something that a lot of money is invested into.
Speaker 1 00:03:29 It's that, I guess it's finding that balance of like, obviously you want money, we need a budget, we have to live, but you don't want so much that people are gonna pull the plug on it. So I think, I think you're right. I think it's seen as low risk, high reward if it flops, uh, who really cares? You didn't put that much money into it. But now with all this money being invested into IP and the prospect of a series being optioned for like a movie or a Netflix series or, or whatever, I think you're gonna see people still investing in it, if I had to guess. But I guess we'll see, we'll see how bad things get, but I think we're in a reasonably good position all things considered.
Speaker 2 00:04:08 That was a fantastic episode by the way, uh, that you did. One of the thing, I don't remember exactly what she said, but she did bring up, or I think one of you brought up about the concept of evergreen content in, in podcasting and audio. And I think that's one of the advantages of even if you invested money into an audio series, again, I'm just kind of recollecting what she was talking about that it's still there and still accessible because, I don't know, let's face it. I, my whole family has gone through the flu the last couple of weeks. Uh, luckily it skipped me and I did nothing but watch movies, <laugh> because everyone was sick. My wife was sick, kids were sick. So I just watched movies and sat down, you know, with Netflix taking care of everybody. But sitting there and watching a movie is a commitment literally because you have to watch it, right?
Speaker 2 00:04:56 And, you know, you have to kind of prepare for it and you know, you know, you're, you want to enjoy it a little bit. Now granted, I watched it on my MacBook <laugh>, so it wasn't the best theat, you know, theater like experience, especially watching Top Gun. Um, but it was still a commitment in time and and interest. Whereas I think audio, you don't need to prepare mentally as much. Uh, I don't know if that's a fair statement to say, but if there is a four year old audio series that we didn't get to or that I didn't listen to, it's way easier for me to be like, okay, yes, I can listen to this on my commute on my g at the gym when I'm working. I know it's crazy for some people, but it's way more accessible and I can still tune into that. And I think that that's where we have, I mean, it's audio, right? So that's where we have that advantage, um, in the back catalog and, and evergreen content. And you know, I don't think video and film literally can't get that <laugh> because it's very, it's impossible to drive and watch Top Gun at the same time though. I'm sure there are some who tried it.
Speaker 1 00:05:58 So I do remember the conversation you're referring to obviously, cuz it was pretty recent. But I, I was talking with Jenny Turner Hall and I think the context of what you were describing was comparing and contrasting putting on a live performance, which a lot of people involved with a simple her story that was kind of their background and a simple, her story really does feel like experimental theater and it's a lot of stage actors and producers and writers who came together to make this series. And we were talking Bell, when you put on a live performance like that, what are those run for a week? Maybe, maybe two weeks? If it's, if it's big and that's it, it's gone after that, someone might film it, but it's not really meant to be a film. It's meant to be experienced in the theater. So if you don't get a big turnout for that, well that's it.
Speaker 1 00:06:45 You missed your window versus something that's evergreen. Even if it doesn't come out with like a bank, even if it's not getting covered, if it's not getting, you know, making the top of the year list by, by whoever it's there and who knows what could happen in a year or two. And I, and I think that is maybe at least my rationale for why at audience we kind of pivoted away from a lot of the shows. We are, a lot of the episodes we are making into something that I think is gonna have a little bit more staying power. Cuz I can go back and look at the analytics and I get it, the episode's about like monetization and giving tips. I know those get more listens, but that stuff's a little bit ephemeral too. Stuff changes so fast that you make something about technology or marketing or whatever, six months from now it's, it's almost outdated. So I think you're, Matt, you're doing a pretty good job with like the YouTube channel and the newsletter and the blog and all that and keeping people up to date on some of the latest and the episodes I think are going directly to the source of people who are creating really, really good work. And that's the thing to me that has staying power, the technology, the distribution, the marketing, it's all gonna change. It's always going to change. But the root of what we're doing is creating good audio, good storytelling, and that's gonna transcend mediums.
Speaker 2 00:08:07 I want to have a cheerleader moment and a therapy session at the same time. <laugh>. So the cheerleader, and, and this is one of the great things for, you know, 2022 as, as we kind of look back at it, is the turnaround that you've been able to orchestrate with audience. Just a phenomenal job. Every episode is a masterclass, uh, for audio creators no matter what level. And it's just because of exactly what you've said. And so a perfect example is when you and I were in, uh, behind the scenes naming, uh, our Sam Sethy or titling our Sam Seth the episode and the marketing person in me was like, we gotta say pod land transitions to pod news. But that's just in the moment, right? That just people know that now. And it's not this sort of evergreen concept, it's just flashy headline. Uh, and I think you ran with the title, uh, change, uh, changing, changing the direction of your show or changing, uh, the show format or something like that.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 Changing a show with Sam Sethy
Speaker 2 00:09:06 Changing a show with Sam Sethy, which is much more evergreen and it just makes more sense <laugh>, you know, it's like I come in and I'm just like, how do we get those clicks and those eyeballs? But you're like, hey, we're, we're creating content here that is everlasting and we want people to go back. If we ever want to say a reference point to say thinking about like when we're talking to a customer thinking about changing the direction of your show, listen to this episode absolutely named <laugh>, right? So it makes total sense. But the therapy session in me is man looking back at 2022, headed in 2023. And we're gonna talk about how we're gonna reshape the show a little bit here. Uh, the format and the seasons of audience to kind of combat. What I'm about to talk about is, man, you, you're putting out amazing content, you have amazing guests.
Speaker 2 00:09:50 The freaking editing is amazing <laugh>, right? Like, it's just amazing. I tune in to every single episode and I'm just like, sometimes you give me the preview, sometimes I don't get to it ahead of time, but I'm listening to it Thursday morning when it goes live. But, and we, this is the, this is the big, you know, it depends moment in, in the podcasting space, every podcast, uh, consultant, coach, myself included, dare I say podcast guru says, just make great content and your show will work, <laugh>. Well guess what? We make great content, but we need more listeners and we need to be more tactful on, uh, uh, whatever it is, sponsorship, promotion, marketing, guests being more involved. Like we have to start taking that medicine of, okay, now we need to promote this and market this a little bit more. That might me mean we bring down the amount of episodes we produce, which yes, that's the, the quick answer to it. Um, but man, I think everyone should be listening to this. Every, everybody should be retweeting and it's a frustration of mine as a creator to say, man, we got the best content for podcasters out there. And uh, that's just the, the flag I'm gonna try to fly in 2023.
Speaker 1 00:11:08 To me, and I've said this before on episodes, I try to be pretty transparent about like, I'm not good at marketing. I don't know how to market this stuff. I feel usually pretty good about the stuff I make, whether it is this what we did on three clips or obscure ball. And yeah, it is, and it can be a bummer sometimes when, you know, you go back and look at the analytics and you did all this prep work for a show and yeah, you got a couple hundred downloads and that's okay, but you know, obviously you, you wanna shoot for hire. Yeah. And I don't, I don't really have a, a quick fix to that other than what I tell people who I think are making good stuff. If it's evergreen, I'm like, hang in there cuz it's there, it's gonna be relevant 3, 4, 5 years from now. So I I I'll say the same thing to you and to myself to kind of maybe ease some of our assuage some of our, our insecurity here that, you know, maybe people will be finding these in a couple years and will, uh, it'll it'll be on the up and up.
Speaker 2 00:12:08 Yeah. And it is not, it's not that it's like going in in the wrong direction, but, and it's a little bit of, you know, you're so close to, well I'm so close to just like being in the, in the industry, you know, man and all the other podcast hosts, and this is, I'm gonna get on the soapbox cuz this is our show and, and I hope other creators feel the same sort of passion for, for their work. It's, it's what drives me to create better content, sort of just in the, in the passenger seat to you really. But I look at what other podcast hosting companies are doing and it's just, it's just a little bit of an advertisement meant for, you know, their, for their host. And it's, and it's all basic like tutorial stuff, which is fine. Like that's great, but like, we're going deep. Like I said, it's a, it's a masterclass and that's okay. Like it's where we started, it's only been what, just this year really from, from that turnaround. So I'm not super concerned about it, it's just the com the competitor slash creator in me is that I just want everyone to listen. But we're gonna change that and we're gonna talk about that right now. We're gonna do something a little bit different for, for 2023, we're gonna go into seasons, two seasons, <laugh>, tentative.
Speaker 1 00:13:19 Yeah, tentatively that is the plan. I think I've, as I've been planning this out, I'm imagining in my head two 10 episode seasons a couple months apart. So the plan right now is to roll out season two. We're gonna call it <laugh>. So everything for the past several years is, is season one technically. And then, uh, season two is gonna begin in March of 2023. Uh, I'm not quite ready to announce who the guests are going to be, but at the moment we are in talks with, I'll say two pretty high profile podcasters that are gonna be worth listening to. 100%. Yeah. And then I think also we're gonna supplement time between seasons with some re heirs, maybe a couple of, uh, you and I doing this touching base every now and again. And I think, I think we're even working on getting some like different like webinars planned and bringing on some, like, previous, previous guests to maybe have another chat, answer some questions, that type of thing.
Speaker 1 00:14:19 So it's gonna get us more into the direction of creating shows the way they're supposed to be created. Not that we were ever doing anything particularly bad in the past, but we always tell people who come to Casto, like, you should really consider the, uh, seasonal approach. And oh, by the way, we do an episode every single week and a lot of times we're scrambling at the last minute and our team behind the scenes as well. People like Isel and, and Jocelyn and Marni who, who help us out with the production. I think they're gonna like us a lot more if we're able to give them some, some more lead time in getting show notes written, getting the website ready, that type of thing. Uh, and, and so it'll just allow us again, to go even more in depth with some of these episodes. And I, I, I could tell you a little bit about my, my process of, I try to do pre-interviews with, with guests.
Speaker 1 00:15:07 I, I try to, if I'm profiling their podcast, I try to listen to as many of their episodes as possible. If it's a limited series, I make sure I listen to the entire thing. So given ourselves, you know, 20 episodes like this a year will give us time to really, really focus on episodes and market those and make connections, uh, rather than scrambling at the last minute to try to get episodes made. Because if somebody cancels on you, and that's understandable, when that happens, well you are screwed If the episode's supposed to come out in five or six days or even even a week, it's not a lot of time to try to compensate. So that's my thinking on it and I, I hope, uh, yeah, I I hope the end product will be an improvement on upon what we built on this past year.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 For all the ranting I did about all of the hard work, <laugh> you accomplished in 2022, this is the luxury a creator can have. And when you zoom out and you say, oh boy, 20 episodes, you know, for a whole year, 52 weeks in a year, et cetera. But when you zoom out there, there's, I mean, we look at just the holidays, like just the week of holidays, like we're in right now, Thanksgiving now headed into Christmas and this whole like between Thanksgiving and Christmas period, we know that not everyone is tuning in because everyone's going crazy, at least i, I guess in the US. And, uh, these are moments that you can reuse that evergreen con content we just talked about and re-air these to fill in the gaps. And once you start covering, you know, holidays or summer breaks or just those pockets of time where, you know, there's a dip in either your creativity or listenership, I mean, it, it makes total sense <laugh> to do what we tell everyone else to do, which is set up in seasons and then bookend that with either re heirs and, and what we're gonna do in the middle, sort of the cream filling of our podcast, uh, will be sort of these live events that we've done in the past, uh, for, you know, our, our hosting product, right?
Speaker 2 00:17:10 And, and bringing people together. I'm looking forward to that as like, again, I keep saying that the stuff you're putting out is a masterclass for, for audio creators, no matter what level. I wanna kind of do the same thing and have like a half day event where we'll get some of the, the past guests or future guests and get them together, uh, to do sort of some kind of paneled, uh, live q and a where audience listeners and castle's customers can come and ask questions of these sort of top tier creators and of yourself and just have a, a better experience with it, you know, sort of brought to you by, uh, the audience podcast, right? So that's kind of the idea, uh, in the middle of these seasons, and that's just what we're gonna be doing for, you know, marketing and promotion around the show.
Speaker 2 00:17:54 Um, trying to bring a live component to it, right? Just another sort of arm of, uh, marketing and promotion that one can do with a, with a podcast. And, and we'll see how it goes. Again, we're, we're learning through this industry, you know, as well as all social media sites burn. We're trying to find new places, uh, to go and promote. We have a very strong email list. We have a dedicated audience to audience. We have the three clips property as well, so we have some luxury and, um, I'm looking forward to it. Like I, I'm excited for it. There's, you know, again, competitive creator rant moments aside. Uh, I think we're in the, in the right direction with audience.
Speaker 1 00:18:31 You know, I asked you at the beginning of this episode like what happened over the past year that changed how you thought about podcasting and creation and this career path. We've, we've chosen, and I think back on that centralized versus decentralized series we did, and I, I went into it admittedly, not really having a strong opinion, not really knowing a whole lot about it. Probably not as much as a producer like myself should, should know. I admittedly just, you know, again, I I tend to focus maybe too much on the creative side that having been said, I learned a lot listening to, like you guys talk, like you and Sam Sethy and you and Adam Curry and you and Tanner. And it was, it was really good conversations, but I think without getting too in depth with, uh, the whole Elon Musk and Twitter saga, to me, what that has, I think demonstrated to everybody is how quickly a platform that has that was seen as valuable can spiral outta control. And so when people say, well, we're gonna put all our eggs in the Spotify basket, we're gonna trust them to be good stewards. Not saying anything about how Spotify is currently run, but even if you think that they're good stewards of people's work and their content, and I think musicians would probably have a pretty strong opinion about that, even if that's your belief, look how quickly that can change. Can you imagine an Elon Musk type person buying Spotify?
Speaker 1 00:20:04 Any podcast critical of Tesla will probably get de platformed. I don't think you would hesitate to do that, and I don't, I don't think his strongest supporters would would call him out on that. And you gotta have something in your back pocket. You know, Adam Curry talked a lot about that, about like de platforming and that type of thing. And while he's probably coming at it maybe from a different perspective than I am, I think that there's still a principle at work here of you really can't control what Spotify does, can't control what Apple Podcast does, but as a creator, you can control your own RSS feed, you can try to implement some form of value for value, and you can kind of be your own captain, if you will, and not not rely on these, these big tech giants because, you know, again, I think we've always looked at them as too big to fill, and it would appear, at least as of right now, they are failing. And maybe that's good. I, I don't necessarily look at that as being the worst thing that could happen. I think if as creators, you know, again, we have a little bit more autonomy, we kind of control the distribution a little bit more. I think there could be something better. On the other side of all this lunacy, all this confusion,
Speaker 2 00:21:21 You're talking to a guy who, uh, built a career in open source <laugh>, specifically with, uh, well, I won't go way back to my legacy days, but, uh, a 15 year career in, in covering WordPress and building WordPress sites. And this is an open source, uh, piece of software. Many of our listeners probably already know about it. And when you hear it on the outside, you're just like, Ugh, I don't know. It's just a piece of software. Like, oh, why is this crazy guy talking about, you know, WordPress and love it so much? Same thing when people hear like, oh, these is just these crazy people talking about RSS feeds and podcasting. We already have Spotify and, and Apple and YouTube and all this stuff, but WordPress is open source. Podcasting 2.0 is open source. It's a collection of humans not associated. Although some, especially in the WordPress space, have jobs at corporate entities like a GoDaddy, like a blue host that, that create, help create WordPress.
Speaker 2 00:22:13 But it's all open source. You can do whatever you want with it. You can publish whatever you want. You can bring it any to any web host. Same thing with an RSS feed, with podcasting, it's yours. You control it. What is the, what's the, the trade off is you don't have distribution on a social media platform. Like you don't have that leverage. Now you can go and you can say, listen to my show and all that fun stuff. Spotify gives you a search engine, YouTube gives you a search engine, but it's their platform. And that's the trade off that one must make. What's funny is I see everyone, especially, uh, in the Twitter space, um, or the podcasting space on Twitter, leaving Twitter, uh, there's a great new Discord server that's out there that Ariel and others run. Uh, but I see a lot of people switching to, to Macedon, myself included, which is an open source just for la uh, easy speak, uh, a Twitter alternative, but it's open source.
Speaker 2 00:23:10 It's made by other humans, not an a, a, a corporate entity. And I see people get there and they go, this thing is terrible, right? It's, it's not as good. Well of course it's not as good. It doesn't have billions of dollars pumped into it. It's made by your neighbor, right? So imagine if your neighborhood was like, we gotta go build a new town. Who's gonna build it? We are <laugh>. We're gonna go clear that land by by hand. And why are we gonna go to Home Depot to buy, no, we're gonna do it ourselves. We're not gonna touch, we're not gonna have any corporate interests. We're not gonna have any outside investment. You're gonna look like, you know, Tom Hanks and Castaway <laugh>, right? That's what you're going to look like while you build that town because you're not getting all of this corporate interest. You're not bringing all this money in and this is what you get.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 This is the organic software, if you will. I have a big thing which I won't go into as I'm on the soapbox about blue collar digital workers. That's a thing. That's what I label myself. I am somebody who knows technology that just wants to help people with it and build, you know, some cool things and, and, and help people along. And I think that's a whole new movement because of this. Finally 10 years into social media sites, people are realizing, oh yes, we're getting burned again. Put all my content into the silo so that they can run ads against it. Which I don't see a nickel of. Oh, I guess, I guess I've learned that lesson. Again, I should own my content. How WordPress is great podcasting. Uh, RSS feeds phenomenal cuz you can control it. The trade off is roll up your sleeves and start promoting and thinking like a marketer and a business person. Unfortunately, that's the trade off, but you reap the rewards.
Speaker 1 00:24:50 Yeah, but I mean, some of that, alright, the technology stuff is not always intuitive. I will grant you that, but the concept of if you want your thing, your podcast, your YouTube channel, whatever it is to be successful, yeah, you're gonna have to work. Like, I think it's been, I don't wanna insult anybody, but it has been maybe baffling and a little bit frustrating to me. When people make that realization and they're surprised by it, like, what did you think was gonna happen? That there was gonna be some silver bullet, that you're gonna go into a very crowded space where some of the most talented creative people in the world are making great content and somehow you are just going to what automatically be successful. It's hard, it's hard work. We work really, really hard at what we do and I, I don't think we're where we want to be just yet. Like I said, we're on the right trajectory, but there's, there's work to be done. And I think yeah, people are gonna have to kind of accept that if it's going to be successful, it's not going to be because of an algorithm necessarily. Maybe the algorithm helps you, what the hell do I know? But, uh,
Speaker 2 00:26:02 Well it, it does, it certainly does. Like Spotify, YouTube, YouTube, when, when they launch podcasting, it's gonna be a scary thing because they have monetization built in. They have obviously a phenomenal, the leading search engine <laugh>, uh, for finding stuff. And they are, there's already video content there. So I mean, if they ever get their act together, it's gonna be a fantastic solution. But like we're already seeing, uh, in pod news two days ago, or yes, yesterday, I can't remember. There was, uh, sort of some leaked information that potentially anchor will go away and it'll just be Spotify and you're just going directly to Spotify. So they're just going to, you know, get rid of the anchor name, which obviously is probably smart for them. But what does that mean for all of the free podcasters that are already using Anchor as their, you know, defacto free solution?
Speaker 2 00:26:51 Who knows what that does to the feature set and the distribution of an RSS feed? Will they take that away? Who knows? Um, one last note on the open source side of it, because it's not just the software, it's the human factor. Uh, the open source is not new. It might be new to some listening to this because of everything going on with Twitter, moving to Macedon, talking about RSS feeds. But for instance, with WordPress, if there's a new version coming out, there's always, uh, every quarter a new version coming out. So 6.2 I think is coming up next. You can go into the Slack channel or to WordPress dot org's website, see everything that's coming and comment on it. So if you didn't like something, you could literally go and say, I don't like that feature. Here's why this is a better alternative. We should do this.
Speaker 2 00:27:39 Now look, of course, like everything else in the world, like from your, uh, town meetings, you know, talking about which potholes get filled to, which button goes into WordPress. Yeah, okay, you might not have effect on, on changing something, but you have a voice and you can get it out there. And if you have a great case, you could actually ch affect the way WordPress is developed without even writing lines of code. Same thing with podcasting 2.0, you might not like the tech of Macedon and going into this group, and yes, they're all a little bit techy right now, but as more people adopt podcasting 2.0 as a creator, you can go in and say, you know, you should really support, I dunno, PayPal links, I'm just throwing this out there. You should be able to support PayPal links in the RSS feed, which they do.
Speaker 2 00:28:26 But if they didn't, you could make that case and it might not go into the next version, but you have a seat at the table, you have a voice, and you can leave a comment and say, this is why I think this is the right direction. So it's not just about the software and the buttons and everything you're clicking, but it's the, it's the process behind it, right? It's the voting, it's the communication, it's the scheduling, it's everything. And you have to give back a little bit an open source, uh, to get the, to get the outcome that you're, that you're looking for. So you either have to chime in and say something or, you know, write up a speck or draw some things in a, in Photoshop and say, this is what it should really look like and give that back. It's sort of like value for value, right?
Speaker 1 00:29:12 This feels like a, yeah, this feels like we've, we've covered a lot of ground. It's been, it's been an eventful year, I feel like, um, you know, between three clips and, and audience and, and everything we're doing. And, uh, of course also behind the scenes too, kind of revamping and trying to think more critically about, you know, the production service we offer at Casto. And I think that's also heading in the right direction. I think, uh, at least personally, I've been able to kind of wrap my mind around like what we're, what we're capable of offering at the moment, what we, what we can do. And, uh, that too is on I think an upward trajectory.
Speaker 2 00:29:49 Yeah. Uh, in closing out, I just wanna thank everybody for, you know, tuning into audience, uh, for being a loyal audience to the Audience podcast. I took over from Craig, I don't know, two and a half-ish years ago. Stewart's been running it since January, 2022, right? Fully. So, I mean, you've been again, doing a phenomenal job masterclass in every episode. Everyone keep tuning in. Tell everyone about this. Um, if you need help running your podcast into 2023, maybe you're a brand, maybe you're a business, maybe you're a creator, you just don't wanna do it anymore, reach out to
[email protected] or hello casos.com. I'm going to have a link in the show notes. Have a very short survey for, uh, for you to take if you're a creator doing donations, subscriptions, uh, anything but ads <laugh>. Um, I have this quick little survey. We're just trying to get, uh, a rough number of how much money you made in 2022. It's all anonymous. You don't have to put in, uh, your contact information. You don't have to name your show, you don't have to name yourself. We're just looking to find the number so that we can talk about it on audience in the newsletter, the YouTube channel, and the blog <laugh>, right? We're gonna do a little create wrap up of what, uh, you might expect having a donation link, like a buy me a coffee, or a Patreon or Casos podcast subscriptions. Thanks for listening to everybody.
