Speaker 1 00:00:05 You are listening to the audience, podcast, your home, to stories and lessons for podcasters, looking to take their show to the next level for people just getting started with podcasting to brands and celebrities, monetizing or audio experience, the audience podcast has it all never missed another show by subscribing at castles.com/subscribe. What did you think of today's intro it's Ilucentro it's one that I actually did live with air quotes on our YouTube channel, youtube.com/casos. I have a video there that I produced talking about, setting up your intro for your podcasts, and you can see how I came up with that script. You can see how I overlaid that same script on music, and I did it with two different tempos as well, or two different tones in that video. So you can see the delivery of an intro might set the stage for the rest of the podcast and maybe even what kind of audience you're addressing.
Speaker 1 00:00:51 So if you're interested, check out that YouTube video, it'll be in the show notes. Today's guest is somebody that has eight plus years of experience as a podcaster in three different variations that I think are going to prove to be very educational to us as podcasters, whether you're a brand new podcaster or a seasoned podcaster, she leads the marketing profs [email protected]
One of the world's largest educational sites for marketing that's her day job. That's what she gets paid to do. She's an interesting title called talk show host because her breadth of work spans beyond just the day job as a podcaster. She has her own show, which she co-hosts with a friend of hers covering hobbies, what people do for hobbies. And she does this in seasons, right? So hold that thought for a second. And then she does another podcast, which is a live stream on many different platforms, which just became a castles customer with her goes friend of the show, Chris Brogan, whom you've heard on this podcast before.
Speaker 1 00:01:49 So she co-hosts that, but that's a live stream going out on many platforms. So you have a podcast or that you're going to hear from today who has a podcasting day job creating topics around marketing and authors and the web, the digital experience. And she has her own sort of labor of love the PunchOut podcast, which is bucketed into seasons. So a different approach architecturally there. And then she has a live stream that she co-hosts with Chris Brogan. So now you have this live stream component to creating audio, and she has just a wonderful way of approaching the productions and the thought process behind all of these different shows. So I think you're going to learn a lot today. I hope you learn a lot today. If you do reach out to Carrie and say, thanks, don't forget to subscribe, castles.com/subscribe. Okay. Let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 1 00:02:35 I love the title talk show hosts. We were just chatting pre showed. Generally. I'm asking people like, what do you want to be called a CEO of this director of that? Like what, what is the title talk show host is the first time I've heard somebody admit that title. And it's also something that I think is like, yeah, why haven't I been saying like myself, like, that's largely what I do to make a living here in three other podcasts that I do. When do you think you came to grips with that reality? Or was that literally on your resume at marketing props?
Speaker 2 00:03:08 This is the title my mom can understand for one thing. So podcasts or she doesn't so much understand, but I've been doing audio podcasts since like 2005. I started out doing a parenting one. Then I took over the marketing profs podcast back in like 2012, 2013 and started doing that. And so then I was the host of the marketing profs podcast. Then I launched another show to talk about hobbies. Cause I was like, ah, I talked a lot about marketing. I would sort of like to talk about other things, not marketing, but with the same people. So that was punch out. So now I had, I was still a podcaster at that point. Then I was helping Chris out with the backpack show when he first launched that, which is a video show. And I was like mostly backstage doing, you know, pulling together research and links and things. Then in July he just like pulls me out front, didn't ask me. He was like, Hey, just on out and ask a few questions. I was like the wet. So after that, now I'm doing video, which is not a podcast. It's a daily video show. And I'm like, I don't even know. So I just said talk, show host because that's what they all are.
Speaker 1 00:04:10 Yeah. So marketing profs, uh, the podcast, they're now eight ish years, right? We're at 2021. Would you doing audio or content creation prior to that? How did you end up being the podcast? Right.
Speaker 2 00:04:22 That's funny. So I was teaching a course on new media marketing and inviting people in to speak to the entire school. Actually it was an online school. So I got Chris Brogan in, actually I got some other people, CC Chapman was one of the people I had in to speak and they'd present to everybody, all of our online students. And I really liked that part of the job where I would interview them and try to tease out insights relevant uniquely to this specific audience of, you know, students entering the marketing space. And I mentioned to Ann Handley that who I knew at that point, I would say sort of casually, like in handling and CC Chapman had written the book content rules. I knew CC really well from when we went to college together. And so we were Facebook friends and like all those things.
Speaker 2 00:05:09 So when the book came out in audio form, I said, Oh my God, I can't wait to edit this book. So you say like really inappropriate things. And Ann Handley was like, ha ha. And so then we kind of became friendly and I met her at some marketing prox events, I want to say in Miami and some other places. And so we, we developed a friendship. I happened to mention to her, gee, I really like this part of my job teaching where I interview experts for the students. It's really been fun for me. And I want to say like two months later, the guy who had launched their podcast, uh, Matt grant, he left for another job and they needed someone to do it. And she said, Hey, can you do it? And I had never, I had never done all the whole thing soup to nuts, like produced my own podcast. I had shown up and talked for my own family one, but I had never done all the pieces. And I just said, Oh yes, I could definitely do it. <inaudible> and stuff. And their content management system. And I fricking did it. I was like to do this.
Speaker 1 00:06:04 Was there one like huge surprise out of that, that you're like, Oh, this, this is a lot more work than I had anticipated. Like the content is just one part or like showing up the talk is just one part, but like planning content logistic. Was it something that stood?
Speaker 2 00:06:17 So I think I was very fortunate in that I started an interview show with marketing profs because they already had such an audience like 450,000 marketers and anybody would say yes to that pretty much. So I didn't have the struggle that a lot of people launching a podcast have of, you know, spending a lot of time pitching people would for the most part come to me or I could just say, Hey, do you want to be on? And they'd be like, yes. So that whole part was very easy for me. And I, I was able to focus on not planning, great content. Like I knew it would be great. It was more like, you know, thinking about what I was going to say, like reading. And I said very little, by the way, my ratio of talk to listen on that show is very low.
Speaker 2 00:06:58 And, uh, it even continues to be, I would say because I, I want to learn from them, but I do the research to find out new questions I can ask. So that probably took the most time I listened to their other interviews, not all of them, but enough of them. So I'm not getting kind of the usual talking points if I can avoid it, or I want to move past those. And I try to read their whole book if I can, if I can't plug out a few key points about like B2B, let's say, I want to focus on business to business marketing. I'll read the parts of their book that are especially salient to that. So that part took longer, I think, than I expected. The other part of that took longer was editing. So I learned how to edit the mechanics of editing are fairly easy. It was being fussy that took me so long, want to fix things. And I tinkered a lot and I had to sort of let that go in order to make this podcast part of my job, because I have whole other set of job duties at marketing process. And the podcast is just one small part of them. So I had to make it fit.
Speaker 1 00:07:54 What were some of the, the things you really were finicky about? I want to paint that picture because like some people do look at it and go, yeah, I just, I just chopped the space off or I pull out an, um, but there's more to that as you get seasoned in this stuff, what was it that you were getting really particular about?
Speaker 2 00:08:07 It depends on the person. Uh, so a couple of times there would be, and I'm not going to say it's always men, but there were people who would just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. No, I don't talk a lot, but I do try to make the interview, you know, direct the interview to where it's going to be most relevant to the people listening. And so if I can't break in there, I need to fix that. So I would actually drop, you know, sections where they were just kind of, I don't even know, like waxing poetic or something like, and, you know, put it in a little bit more of me just so it wasn't like a monologue because nobody wants that. And I, I was hesitant at times to break in. If I didn't have a separate audio track, I learned that early on to have a separate audio track for them, separate track for me.
Speaker 2 00:08:48 So I could do some of those things because if it's one track and when every time I interrupt, you know, their level drops my level spikes. That's a little bit of a mess. So I like learned the ways to make surgery possible. But that's what I'm trying to do. I want them to sound better. I don't want anybody to be like, Oh my God, they never shut up. Like that. That's what it ends up sounding like other things are ums. And sometimes it's successive. If it's the occasional, I will leave it. But sometimes it's really an awful lot. I try to drop the swears if people swear to just whatever, keep like a PG 13 rating. Anyway. Cause I don't know. I try to be respectful where it's a business show, business audience. Like even when Gary Vaynerchuk came on the show, he didn't swear one time. So if somebody else does, I'm like, I'm going to drop it. Cause whatever
Speaker 1 00:09:31 He must have been sweating, just holding
Speaker 3 00:09:33 It back. Maybe, I
Speaker 2 00:09:35 Don't know. You see, not one time I was prepared to, I was like, we're going to write notes and timestamps, but I had to do it. Not one time. He's a perfect gentleman. So the things like that I'll try to fix. Um, very rarely there'll be a weird sound or something on my under there is that I'll take out one time I was in a room. I hadn't expected this. There was a system like a really loud HVAC system. And when it kicked on it, it ruined my audio and it, because it wasn't consistent. I couldn't noise. Cancel it. So I had to rerecord my questions.
Speaker 3 00:10:08 I've been there and I was like, thank God.
Speaker 2 00:10:12 So it's stuff like that. One woman tried to script her answers. I don't script questions by the way, I don't do it. But one time I did because this, uh, an executive new to interviews and sales was like really happy that I was talking to them and whatever. And so I did, even though I didn't want to. And I did tell them too that I will not probably stick to these. So be prepared like when you give me an answer, I'll follow that track. And uh, and she scripted answers, but she didn't want it to sound as though she had, so she was adding ums, like literally every third word to make it sound as though she was speaking spontaneously and then I didn't even want to use it. But then I had to, because you know, for the same reason, like sales was super excited that I talked to her. So I had to like zip that to me all day. Yeah. I can imagine all day. It's very liberating to do the backpack show with Chris because he's like, I don't even care. It is what it is. You go live, it airs live and we just leave it. And that's it.
Speaker 1 00:11:08 There's a lot of things that you said that I want to, that I want to dive into.
Speaker 2 00:11:11 You can tell me to shut up anytime, by the way.
Speaker 1 00:11:15 And I find that changes year after year or at least, um, Oh, podcasting, largely as an art form. To me, it's something that I finally have admitted that like the stuff that you and I, and people listening to the show put out like this is art. It could be just a business show or it could be a show about podcasting. Like we're having right now. And some people might look at it from 50,000 feet away and say, well, that's just a dry topic. That's not art to us. It's art to me, it's art. I feel confident in the stuff that we put out that is a practice that hopefully gets better over time. One of the things that I found super challenging, I feel like I, hopefully we're getting better at is building rapport as fast as possible. You know, especially in your shoes at marketing profs, when, like you said, there's an audience, there's people ready to go. They got a book that want to be on to promote themselves. You know, they're going to provide value, but they don't know you. You don't know them. What have you done over the years to get better at building up rapport before getting on the show?
Speaker 2 00:12:11 Oh boy. So there have been times that I've done prep calls. I don't do them for everyone. I don't do them all the time. I don't even request them, but I'll offer them because some people are just very uncomfortable doing interviews. They're just new at it or something. And so a lot of times, like for example, when I talked to someone from the Baltimore Ravens, they did a lot of interviews. They're fairly comfortable. You know, if you go a little bit down the line, you've got someone from like sandals resorts. Well, that's a cool brand, but maybe those executives don't do a ton of interviews about marketing. So I did a prep call. Like their team was there. There's a certain amount of professional trust that had to be established. And then once that was done, it took maybe 10 minutes to just be like, Hey, tell me some things that you don't get to talk about that you want to talk about.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 And you know, kind of form a list. And they start to feel like they're going to be seen, heard, represented the way they want. And after that, it comes very easy. As far as what normally happens, people will turn up about wrong. Usually like two minutes before we're supposed to record, which is fine. I really don't mind, but we'll just talk about something completely unrelated to marketing. We'll talk about where they, where they live, what they do for fun. That's actually how I started punch out. I'd be like, well, what do you do when you're not marketing? We would just kind of chat for a few minutes. And I would think, Oh, I really wish I could talk about when he went to clown college, but it's like a marketing podcast. So I can talk about that, but I really want to. And so that's why I started punch out to talk about all the things people do outside of work.
Speaker 2 00:13:32 But that's what we do. We talk about things. People are comfortable with that. They enjoy talking about maybe crack a few jokes so I can get a sense of how, how formal or informal they are. And then I try to respect their boundaries while we do the show. Some people are super laid back and some people are a little more buttoned up and either is fine. I just need to feel out how much leeway I have. And that takes maybe two minutes. It's not hard. And you hear the difference in their voice when they talk. So even though I don't record that part where if it comes up, if it's captured, I drop it. The warmth in their voice stays.
Speaker 1 00:14:01 Yeah. I mean, one of the things I, I, I switched to it. You and I both did this is, was we have the pre-interview call really just for me anyway, it helps us to get to know each other. I get to put out, I get to punch out some, I just stole your, one of your, of your podcasts. Cause I'm looking at it right here. I get to bullet list and put some topics down. Like, you know, I'm just looking at our list of the guidelines that I have for you and I, and it's finding tops of the show. Burnout punch out equals and muffin. Top is an actual note that I have in my, in my notes. Um, there's all kinds of things for local podcasts. I do a local podcast in my local, you know, about an hour South of where, where Chris Brogan lives.
Speaker 1 00:14:40 And I need to have that pre-interview because so few people here are hip to podcasting being interviewed. They don't know technology. And I literally need to spend 10, 15 minutes ahead of time just to make sure things go okay, on the technical side. And then largely I'd say about 70% of their shows are okay. And there's a 30% of people who still don't get it. Even after, you know, I send them a Calendly link. I'm like, just pick a time here. And they're like, what about Friday? I go, just look at the calendar and pick a time. It's going to send you all the stuff you need and they still can't do it. So I've shifted largely to having those in-person calls beforehand.
Speaker 2 00:15:19 You know, there's something to commend that I interviewed Alan Aldo when his book came out, the one about, um, I think it's called if I understood you, what I have this look on my face and it's about communication. And I was so excited. And of course it all went through like his people, they booked it and everything, his book publicist from FSB associates. They're actually amazing. But anyway, so he turned up just for the recording. Didn't talk to him before, but he was just starting to do podcast interviews in anticipation. I think of launching his own podcast, clear and vivid, but he wasn't there yet. And so we had audio problems. It was not working. It sounded like he was yelling at me from the bottom of a pool. And I blew a like 11 minutes out of that. And I said, okay, well, can you just call it, say, I swear to God.
Speaker 2 00:16:01 I'll like, delete your number. I'm never gonna use it again, but we need to call. So, so he sounds like he's on the phone, but you know, whatever it is, what it is, he's Alan Alda. And he's amazing. But you do have to decide how you're going to handle that. If you know that the people in your audience are a little bit less accustomed to doing that, where like, if I interviewed him today, I wouldn't worry about it at all because he does his own podcast and he's very, you know, plugged into that. But this was pre that. So that was rough. Cause you're like trying to measure audio quality against getting the substance of the conversation.
Speaker 1 00:16:30 Yeah. I mean, look, people have to, and this is, this is somebody who totally understands that you have to start somewhere, right? As a podcaster, as a creator. I don't care if you're blogging, content marketing, you know, learning how to start a bakery. Like everybody starts from zero and we all have to learn and yes, yes, we will all stumble and, and look foolish, sound foolish, do the wrong things. But hopefully we're getting better. I cannot put up with the interviews done using a laptop microphone in a 12 foot ceiling room with marketers or, you know, heavily into listen to political podcasts these days, trying to get the insights, all these news anchors and talents. Now work from home. None of you had a budget for 50 bucks to buy a USB microphone or a headset. Like give me a break. We got to get a little bit better. And your producers
Speaker 2 00:17:23 Told you, Hey dad.
Speaker 1 00:17:26 Yeah, like I got, and you know, there's no question there. It's just the rent.
Speaker 2 00:17:31 Does he do get a little defensive at times where I'll be like, Oh, your sounds really tinny. And they're like, well, I use this all the time. I'm like, well maybe, but you know,
Speaker 1 00:17:40 Jay Canzo friend of the show, he'll be on the podcast with me. Uh, fairly soon he has a great website called marketing showrunners.com. I took a couple, his podcasts and courses, very bullish on setting the premise for a podcast and using that as your North star to move forward. How do you set the premise? Do you have a different take on it with the multitude of shows that you do to, to keep yourself okay, I'm on marketing profs. Like this is the premise I'm with Chris. This is the premise I'm on punch out. This is the premise. And when you create a new show, are you creating a new show now? And you're like thinking about how to clearly define that premise for each show.
Speaker 2 00:18:16 So I don't know if I'd call it a premise. I try to serve as a proxy for the audience and turn up prepared to learn, like come to it, willing to display my ignorance about the topic, because that's the only way to learn you. Don't, I've, I've listened to plenty of shows where peoples talk way more than they listen. And they're the interviewer. And I have a really big problem with that. Like I don't invite Chris Brogan or Jay Kenzo to my show so I can validate what I think I want to learn from them. So that's kind of always, that's the premise that underlies, I think all the interview shows that I do, but for marketing props, I'm thinking, what do the people in the audience? And I know what they're like. Um, I know what they're doing. I know their job titles, you know, sort of, I don't use personas, but I look at who's actually listening and think about what would benefit them the most to learn from this person.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 So I try to make it very applied. Some people keep it really high level, like the why of certain things. And I try to drill down into. Okay, but what does that look like for someone who's in B2B marketing, selling software, or like I get real specific so that they can then come out or a subscription service. You know, I make it a little more applied for marketing profs for punch out. We're talking about hobbies and it really couldn't be anything more fun or easy to talk about than what people do outside of work, hobbies, charity work. These are things they feel passionate about. They're excited about weird collections of things like, so I call it the muffin top of podcasts because when somebody tells you, Oh, well I have a collection of like tops baseball cards that I keep in the basement and my wife wants me to throw it out.
Speaker 2 00:19:41 But like, I just can't make myself throw it out. And you're like, Oh, I really want to talk about that. But this is marketing smart. It's like, I can't argue with that. So for me, it's like, that was the muffin top of the conversation. The part I enjoy on a personal level, quite a lot. And I wanted to talk more about that and open it up. So that's all punch out is we talk about what people do outside of work. And those conversations are very easy. The premise is that your off hours are just as important to your success as your on hours. And so I find really successful marketers who have careers that other people admire and sometimes even want to emulate, you know, like they'll hold them up as a career template. Like my ideal career would be somebody like this person and I show them hustle.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 Culture is not real that you can have a rich and varied and interesting life outside of work. And you need to do that to feed your professional life as well. Like really great marketing is not going to come from someone who's just all grind all the time. They don't have the energy. So that's, that's kind of the premise of that one. I guess if to the extent I have one, but again, I talk a lot less, I mean, probably more than marketing products, but a lot less than the guest does. And I have a co-host for that show too. So you have to be aware that two of you now with questions to be answered on behalf of, of the people listening. So you can't kind of just go ahead and talk all the time. It would be doubly rude, I guess. And then backpack.
Speaker 2 00:20:57 I mean, who the hell knows the idea is that success comes in many shapes and sizes and forms and we want to deconstruct it so that other people can apply those lessons in their own life and succeed at their own endeavors. But we've talked to dominatrixes and strippers, but also a nun and comedians and actors and authors and founders and humanitarian clowns. I mean, it's that varied. So the path to success for them is different, but the qualities that bring them success are surprisingly similar across the board, like following your own path and stuff. That's the premise of that show. Where did we learn about it? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:34 Do you have a lesson in that maybe you have an illustrated yet or really digested yet across the breadth of shows that you do, but you know, one of the things that I like to say as a marketer myself, and this is saying it dangerously to you working at marketing process, marketers ruin everything, right? Eventually marketers ruin everything like a new thing hits and everyone's excited. And then before, you know, it it's just marketed to heck and back then people are just like this, what happened? What happened to the pop-up? Right? You know, like, you know, those types of things, but a lot of people who get into podcasting, they say, Oh, this is a great way to build my brand, build my business. And they take that marketing approach. And then the next thing is like, okay, so what's the blueprint for doing a successful podcast.
Speaker 1 00:22:19 And then they do, you know, they try to find these steps, right? Like, Oh, I must do interview. I must ask 10 questions. I must have a lightning round. And like, there's, this should be these things. But the beauty of a podcast is like, what you've done with the backpack show, what you've done with punch out. It's this eclectic mix. And it's so hard for people to see that because they want to just look on paper and say, no, this is the route you take. This is what I should do to make a successful podcast. Is there a lesson in this creativity that you found, uh, is there a formula to finding something fun and exciting? That actually makes it a good,
Speaker 2 00:22:55 Uh, the closest thing I've ever found is you have two years and one mouth use them in proportion. If you're looking for a formula, that's the one, but as far as steps to follow, just listen to some podcasts and see how they strike you. Because I promise you that a lot of people who use those same checklists or are creating just garbage podcasts that nobody wants to listen to. So if you just listen to, if you like, we as marketers, I think forget to consume things as well, like, or we somehow separate our experience as a consumer, from our experience as a marketer and think, well, it's okay if I do this well, no, it's not like you hate it when everybody else does that garbage thing, why would you do it? So that's just that just having empathy, I think for the community you're trying to serve and think about what actually would benefit them to have as content and try to create more of that.
Speaker 2 00:23:42 It's not going to be asking everybody same 10 questions are the same three questions, and it's not going to be probably scripting questions in general. Think you have to be a little more agile than that to follow where people lead. You're not, no matter how much research you do, you are not going to know more about what the person is going to talk about than they do. You just are not. So don't try and don't pretend, do you be ready to take a step in a different direction when it's clear that they know something of benefit to your audience or your community, and you don't know anything about that, don't avoid it because you don't know about that. And you research something more safe and comfortable go that way and just admit, I have never heard of that. What even is that? And how can we,
Speaker 1 00:24:24 Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that when I look at other podcasters, when I look at other YouTubers, one of the things that sort of grinds my gears is when other creators say I don't listen to podcasts, I don't watch other YouTube channels. And it's just like, ah, there's something about that of not trusting that person, like when you can't be consumed in other content, you know, I understand it from a sense, like, we don't pay attention to the competition because that could just get us going down the wrong direction. Like we're doing the same things that the competitions do, which gets us nowhere. I get that side of it. But there's for me content or other content, like, I don't know, maybe you're Gary, because I think I've heard Gary say this before. It's like, I don't consume any content. I mean, my God, his calendar probably just doesn't have the time.
Speaker 1 00:25:06 But like, I understand, like you don't consume that kind of content. Like you don't consume another Gary V but is there like a television show that you watch or another podcast that you listen to? That's like fiction, like something where you can appreciate, Oh, I like that storytelling. I like that cast of characters. I like how they, they button this all up. Like when I'm watching and experiencing content. Now that's how I, that's the lens I look through it. I guess I, I'm almost saying like, I almost don't enjoy it, but I, but I'm also like appreciative of like how this stuff all comes together. Now, do you have a different appreciation of, of how content comes together these days?
Speaker 2 00:25:43 Oh boy. So a couple of things, the first is that my content consumption does double duty. So I'll be listening to audio books and for the backpack show, we have authors on of all types. They're not all business books. So it's actually surprisingly enjoyable to listen to like a mystery or something, because I know we're going to talk to that author. So it's research, but it's also consuming content and with an eye toward, Hey, that's great storytelling. A one book called black buck is actually a sales guide as well as a novel. And you would think that that would suck, but it's so good. Mateo scour, poor, check it out. It's so good. It's about this guy who has an experience as the only black person at a tech startup and how he kind of loses his way, but then finds a way to help other people of color improve their situation in life by learning sales techniques.
Speaker 2 00:26:28 So the book is heavy on those, but it's so good because there's a story around it. So anyway, everything I listened to or watch serves double duty for me in that way. But the closest, I think probably the closest example I could give of a show. Like the backpack show is like the Howard stern show. We have whole different reason for talking to people like strippers. Like I talked to one to say, Hey, you brought your whole operation online and made like a co-operative. So all the performers split the proceeds. It's not like it was before. COVID when you had to pay just to work at a, at a club, you had to pay like a fee and then they would take a percentage of your profits that you earned over the night and all that kind of stuff. Like this is a whole different revenue stream or revenue, um, approach as well, monetization approach as well.
Speaker 2 00:27:13 So I'm listening for multiple reasons, but Howard stern had like a cast of characters kind of regulars to the show. And we definitely have that as well. Like people who continue to come back and be part of it after they've been on or people who come primarily to like part of our community who come to watch it and then join us in the studio every now and then for special occasions. So that's kind of what we've created, but it's all towards success in business lessons and stuff. It's a little different than, than him. The only other thing I would say is when I listened to other people's shows, I get a whole new feeling about the experience for the guests and the people watching. So we just had someone on princess, Sarah Culberson, she discovered through trying to find her biological parents as an adoptee, that she is a princess in Sierra Leone.
Speaker 2 00:27:57 Like her father is that I think premier chief of the ruling tribe there, the Mendi tribe, and that came with a whole slew of responsibilities and not like a Barbie dream house and lots of money that you would think is a lot of stuff. But I watched a couple of her other interviews and people did not talk about her work, the work that she's doing now to improve life in Sierra Leone, for people after that horrible civil war they had had and how the infrastructure is still poor and that sort of thing, they were just like, Oh wow, that's cool. You're a princess. And you found it out. And it felt like they gave a really short shrift. So by watching other shows for research, I'm able to see where maybe some other shows didn't showcase the guests the way they would have hoped I'm able to then do that for them.
Speaker 2 00:28:36 So they can see, they feel seen and their work gets the attention it deserves. And I'm learning how to run a show and how not to write. So there's lots and lots of benefit. I did have one person say to me who we both know and who I love, but, well, why don't you? He said, do you listen to my podcast? And I said, Nope. And he said, well, why not? I said, because I don't want to see. He says, well, that's not nice and listened to yours. And I said, well, don't, that's fine. Like, don't listen to it just because it's mine, listen to it. I'm making the content for people who are interested in the content. If that's not you, I don't want you to feel obligated to listen. I don't feel obligated to listen. So maybe that's mean, but you know, it's not like a quid pro quo think about it. He couldn't possibly listen to all of the content, all the people, you know, produce. So don't expect it.
Speaker 1 00:29:22 Yeah. I mean, that's a huge lesson that I learned in, and this is actually going to segue into one of my final questions here. We talk about burnout and burnout as a creator, as a podcast or the early days of podcasting. It's like, yeah, you, you get out there. And these are questions. I feel a lot here at cast doses. You know, customer has been here for whatever three, four months. I'm like, why aren't I getting more downloads? And they're very fixated on the download count and seeing that chart rise, which, you know, rightfully so. I mean, it is an indication that people are listening. Yes, but it's not the best game though. Yeah. It's a, it's a tremendously long road and people aren't going to listen to this. There's literally 1.9 million podcasts out there. It'll probably be 2 million by the time this episode airs.
Speaker 1 00:30:04 It's okay. If people don't listen to every single show, just put yourself in their shoes, you don't listen or watch every YouTube video that comes out or even your favorite podcasts. You don't get to every show. So even if they listen to the top shows, it's good enough. That's good enough. As long as they know, you're still there and still doing it. How have you, the start of this episode, I was talking about being an artist and understanding what it's like to, to create art. And that's how I, I have felt and how I have dealt with burnout as a podcaster. I've switched from like doing two episodes a week to just doing weekly, to then going monthly, to then creating series today. You know, all of these like show, story arts, all these things. And I've realized like, that's how I've managed to not get burnt out. Like I had to burn out to then realize, okay, I don't have to keep pounding the pavement. There is no rule book here. How have you managed burnout in your creation of podcasts and everything else?
Speaker 2 00:30:59 Well, I had to get a lot less picky about audio and just be like, it is what it is, you know, except for the swear words, I still try to drop those. You know, as far as, uh, cleaning up a lot of things, doing major surgery, I've just had to let that go. So the way I've forced myself to do that is to record live a lot of times, because then it really is what it is. I've got one track and that's as good as it gets. And it forces me to relinquish that kind of control, freak nature I have about editing and making it perfect. Can't possibly do it. So that helped me to avoid burnout. But marketing profs, I mean, it's a weekly podcast. There've been times that, you know, Mr. Week or something here and there, but it's a, it's a weekly podcast.
Speaker 2 00:31:35 You just got to do it. So it's a question of, you know, how good did I do what a particular week? I mean, you know, you bring your best effort to it. Some weeks you've got more to give other weeks. You have less to give. When I plan my own project, like punch out, I knew I did not have time for another like weekly show and neither did my co-host Katie Rowe bear. Neither one of us could take it on if that was the way it went. So we decided in advance, it was going to be by season. So we'd carve out a couple of weeks record the whole season release the whole season, kind of Netflix style. And that was it. And so we've got four seasons out there now, plenty of stuff for people to consume. And we're not constantly trying to do that grind.
Speaker 2 00:32:14 On the other hand, the backpack show, that's an every weekday show, two guests per show. Sometimes somebody drops them. We're down to one. Sometimes we have three because just the way it goes. And I think it would potentially be a grind except that I can book literally anyone I want. So if I can imagine the person I'd like to talk to, I can get them on. Like I thought about clowns. We, this thing, I was like, I want to talk to a clown, but a clown that goes to like battered women's shelters or places where people really need laughter and that, you know what, there's a whole organization for that. I didn't know clowns without borders. It's like exactly what you think it is. But so that, that's what keeps me from burning out. So when you're planning your show, whatever kind audio video, or anything, it's gotta be something you really want to do.
Speaker 2 00:32:56 Or you will burn out like you, you adjusted how many times you did it, the frequency of it based on how much energy you felt like you had to give. If you make it something you want to do all the time, it's not easy. I'm not saying that it is, but if you can do that, that will keep you going a lot longer. And podcasting is absolutely. I mean, in shows in general are like a long-term thing for content. You're not going to see the benefit of it because you start a show and then give it up, you know, two months later. Cause not enough people you think are listening. People need time to discover you. You do it daily. Every weekday, Chris Brogan. And I do the backpack show at 10:00 AM, Eastern across, I don't know, like eight different social channels. Now Twitch is the latest and still people. When he sends out his newsletter and mentions the show, they're like, Oh, I didn't know what you're doing. So
Speaker 3 00:33:42 It takes a long time,
Speaker 1 00:33:44 Long time. It takes a long time. And this is, you know, co-hosted by combined years of experience in podcasting of 20 years. Right? And you're out there still beating the streets. And, and that is like, when people say, what makes your show a success? What makes the backpack show a success that you do it every single day? And that's the end, that's it on Christmas.
Speaker 2 00:34:05 And we're not planning necessarily to do it on Christmas, like every year, but for 2020, I mean, you know, Chris obviously, so he's, he said struggles with depression and stuff and anxiety, and he'll talk very openly about it. And we thought this year, a lot of people are alone for the holidays that might otherwise be spending time with family and friends. And they just can't because that family and friends, they're not part of their same household and because of COVID. So, I mean, my kids are teenagers. They were asleep until pretty late Christmas morning. So I was like, what the hell? So we did a show on Christmas. We did a show on new year's day. We did a show on my birthday. And to me it wasn't, it wasn't like an obligation, something I had to do. It was something I wanted to do because the people that come and show up for us both to be our guests. And also as part of our community, they feel like my extended family, they feel like friends. And so I wanted to be there for them that way I wanted to share my birthday with them. It's a very different dynamic than I've ever had before the live element, obviously both complicates, but also enhances things. So it's what makes it a success, I guess, is that I really want to show up and do it every day. Not just that I do it every day. And that would be a grind.
Speaker 3 00:35:15 <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:35:20 I get to talk to like a former Obama speech writer, or I get to talk to a lawyer named Lawrence Lessig who worked in copyright as an activist for years and years, and is now reforming the electoral system. It's like, I get to talk to people I've dreamed of talking to, or the types of people. I never thought I'd get to talk to and learn so much from them. I mean, I'm excited every day that I get to do,
Speaker 1 00:35:40 I guess the bonus, uh, and this is a bonus for you. And it actually a bonus question as we wrap up here, it's sort of, and it may be I'm, I'm speaking for you and I don't want to, but I know if I were in your shoes, it's pushing you to be maybe uncomfortable to a degree so that you can get better. Like, you know, a former Obama speech writer or somebody who's in the profession that you're like, I am not that smart. Like I can't like, I don't know what I should even ask. And it, and it is a little nerve wracking as a podcast host and as a creator. But once you get over that, you're like, wow, they're just like me. They just kinda know something else.
Speaker 2 00:36:13 Your game that's screwing up live. I think it's something that I am a perfectionist and I always have been. And so prerecording has this appeal that, you know, you can make everything perfect in post. But like I said, that's time consuming and grueling painstaking work. And if you want to continue doing a show for the long haul, you can't put yourself through that. So if you want to come to it with joy and genuine happiness to do it, it has to be enjoyable to do so. I've gotten comfortable. Like if I screw up, I tell the guests before we go live, please, correct me. If I set up a question wrong, I've got a fact wrong. If I say your name wrong, which I really try not to do. But if it happens, please correct me. Because some people are very polite and they won't and some people will.
Speaker 2 00:36:55 And I just let them know, you know, I've gotten a lot more comfortable screwing up in public cause you just have to, and I've definitely said things that I was like, Oh boy, I wish I had said that, but yeah. Yeah. You know, it is what it is. So yes. Push yourself outside your comfort zone. Life is very good for that. Um, so that's what I've taken from it. And I'm very fortunate that Chris is of the same mind. You know, he's very laid back. He doesn't mind being corrected. Like you said, he's very respectful of people generally. And so I think that us being like-minded about it makes it possible. If I screwed up in front of somebody who was like super serious about never screwing up, it would be an issue. But Chris has just like Pat, he screwed up for once. We actually have cards for one another that if we say something wrong or incorrect or like borderline questionable, we'll shoot a yellow card. And it they're all narrated by Tim <inaudible> from NBA jam. So it's really funny. It's very morning show energy. He'll be like, Oh, yellow guard. Broga yeah. So screwing up is almost celebrated, I guess.
Speaker 1 00:37:57 That's awesome. Successful talk show hosts, Cario shake or go Carrie. Thanks for hanging out with me today to enlighten our podcast, both newbie podcasters who are just starting out here at Casos and seasoned podcasters from around the world,
Speaker 2 00:38:13 Having listened to you. I was like, totally. I was like half in love. I said, I've got to go talk to Matt. Working
Speaker 1 00:38:18 Folks, find you on the web to say, thanks.
Speaker 2 00:38:21 I'm Carrie Gorgon like everywhere. Carrie gorgon.com at Kerry Gore going on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and everywhere else. So that's where you can find me on Instagram. But if you really want to win my heart, 10:00 AM weekdays, come check out
Speaker 4 00:38:36 The backpack, show the backpack, show.org.
Speaker 1 00:38:39 I mean, everywhere I go at 10:00 AM, it's like, I'll be on Facebook and I'll see it streaming. And then it's like, I'll go in because usually I get up early. Yeah. You might get young, very young children. And so like lunchtime is 10:00 AM for me. So there's just like, I'm like, I've gone through like four cups of coffee and I'm like, Oh, there it is on Facebook. And then I'll come up to my office and I'll open up Twitter, which is the first thing I do when I get to my office. And there it is on Twitter. And then like, you've got a LinkedIn message and I click on LinkedIn and there's the show over there. And I'm like, wow, literally
Speaker 4 00:39:10 Everywhere. LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Twitch. Yeah. It's everywhere.
Speaker 1 00:39:16 The internet pipes going into Chris's house must just be like, just like using up all the bandwidth. It's ridiculous. Everyone else has. It's the audience podcast only at castles.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list. They're subscribed to the audience podcast.
Speaker 4 00:39:32 See you in the next episode.