Speaker 1 00:00:05 What if I told you that the phrase private podcasting is more than just what you hear at face value. 2020 saw an explosion and podcast adoption and a desire for more audio content. In a previous episode of this podcast, Craig and I explored the latest trends in social audio and how they may or may not impact you as a podcaster, but back to the private podcasting for a moment over the course of the last year, for those creators, that spun up a new podcast and are now looking to monetize it. And for organizations that are pivoting from video to audio, as a step away experience for employees, they want more from private podcasts. They want to monetize it. They want to call it group audio, or they want to offer a members only feeling to the whole experience. Join Craig and I, as we embark on this unchartered territory of private podcasting and how we're shaping this for Castillo's podcasters, you're listening to the audience podcast, your home to stories and lessons for podcasters, looking to take their show to the next level for people just getting started with podcasting to brands and celebrities monetizing their audio experience.
Speaker 1 00:01:05 The audience podcast has it all. Never miss another show by following us at castles.com/subscribe that's castles.com/subscribe. Okay, here we are Craig and I
Speaker 0 00:01:16 Private podcasting. Welcome back to the Casos audience
Speaker 1 00:01:22 Podcast, Greg, how you doing Matt? Doing great. How about yourself? I'm excited because what we're going to talk about today
Speaker 2 00:01:29 Is the, an extension of our previous conversation about the platforms you love to hate social audio. I just got my Twitter spaces invite it. Can't wait to play with it later tonight, but I clubhouse, but Twitter space is more attractive to me. Anyway, we're going to extend that conversation and talk about where we think we don't even think we know where the, uh, the, the next chapter of podcasting is, is headed and that's private podcasting membership, only members only podcasting company-wide podcasting company, only podcasting, many different labels to this podcasting thing. That's what we're going to talk about today. We've covered it a lot on our blog and our YouTube channel, but not directly here on this podcast. I think you touched on two interesting things. There is one, like, we know this is where it's going, because people are asking us all the time, like, can you do this?
Speaker 2 00:02:19 How do you do this? What is this thing? How do I make sense of this? You know, I think that's like a very fair question that a lot of people are asking you, how do I make sense of social audio? You know, clubhouse in Twitter spaces? How does that work with my podcast? How do I make my podcast private to where it can fit into, you know, my social media and my member community. So I think that we're in a, we're in a cool position to be hearing this directly from our customers, people that are coming to us as we're one of the few companies that offer this kind of thing with the integrations that we do. But then I think you, I think you nailed the kind of ideas that like, this is where it's going. We certainly won't. And I don't think the industry will kind of abandon the kind of concept of conventional podcasting, like the show, right?
Speaker 2 00:03:04 This show is a public podcast. It probably will always be a public podcast. We use this and our goal with this is like, it is informational, hopefully educational and entertaining too. But like, we want this to be a place where we can share things that we think and know about podcasting, about the space, how to kind of improve our craft. And we always want it to be available to everybody. And I think the difference is that the industry and people in the industry and participants are adding to that, this concept of, you know, we use the term community a lot. Right. And just cause that encompasses this whole, this whole kind of other idea of doing things, creating content for specific groups of people in your world. And I think the, the cool thing and the interesting thing about it is it is so new that none of us know exactly what it is and where it's going, but we're starting to see some, some semblances of that being defined. I would guess,
Speaker 1 00:03:58 You know, I was on a Twitter space yesterday and coincidentally received my invite right after that. I've been trying to jump on as many as I can because I forgot to game the algorithm that way. But somebody in this particular Twitter space was talking about how, you know, they, they made a remark. Like, I, I think this is going to replace podcasting. And he says this in a room filled with other podcasters, which was like the worst thing. And people would just like, you saw everyone like raise their hands that they wanted to talk. And this is not going to go away. I mean, just from the simple fact, which is my biggest thing, sort of negative against social audio is it just goes away. It just vaporizes into the ether and podcasting, you get to archive this content and you get to go back to this content search through this content, repurpose the content.
Speaker 1 00:04:47 And I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. And on the private side for me, anyway, what I like is, is it can be a little bit more raw. So like the Twitter spaces and the clubhouses. Yeah. It's a little bit more raw because there's less physical production for that kind of thing. Like there's no, everyone's largely just using their phones or their iPads. Yeah, sure. You can hook up your, your USB microphone to it, which I'll do a video on very soon on our YouTube channel, but there's not a lot of, there's no editing. There's no post-production. So it is that in the moment experience that same thing, I kind of like about private podcasts. We have a private podcast for the Academy Academy, not castles.com. And I just rip off some audio files. Like if I find some, some great topic and I can just publish it without the stress of editing, it doesn't go to our production team.
Speaker 1 00:05:38 Like this podcast goes to, we're not doing intros outros, it's just raw unfiltered information, quick and easy. At least the way that I do our private podcast. You could do a high production, private podcast too, I guess. And in fact, that's probably a big industry that I don't know anything about yet, but it's still possible. It's just why I like private podcasting is because it's members only it's exclusive. And I think from a content creators perspective, at least for me that the episode that went out last week here on the audience podcast, I talked about having a goal, Oh my God, everybody w whatever it is that you do, whether you're planting a new garden or exercising or starting a podcast, some thought leader says set a goal and everyone's eyes roll into the back of their heads. I said, set a goal for your podcast.
Speaker 1 00:06:26 And with private podcasting, you literally have to have somebody, at least the way it works here at Casos. You have to subscribe with an email address, and I can easily measure the success of a private podcast simply by looking at the graph that goes up and it says there's another subscriber. And it's easy for me to measure goals, which you can't really do as easily or as detailed in a public podcast. For various reasons, you can look at the stats, you can see that your downloads are going up, but you don't have that connection, right. It's not a, not an email address associated with the listener. And I think that's, that's really awesome from a creator's perspective to have that kind of connection to tie into like the community, like you just mentioned.
Speaker 2 00:07:05 I think that it will be interesting. I know we have some conversations planned for this podcast for over the next couple of months with some creators that have both public and private content. And one thing that I'm interested to talk to them about is their mindset difference when they're creating content for each of those groups, you know, you know, when you're creating content, like you're saying for this podcast, Matt, like, how do you think, and how do you feel? Like how nervous are you, how much preparation do you feel like you need to do? And then for the, for the private audience, for your, you know, for the members of our Academy or for, if you have a course, or if you have a membership site or a paid community, how do you feel about creating content for that? I would suppose that I would feel like I need to put just as much effort into, into both.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 Right? But, but that the amount of connection I know I have with my private audience, because there's so much more specific and they have opted in, like you said, with their email address to get this content much more explicitly than, than just clicking subscribe and the podcasting app that my confidence, I guess, in, in what we're talking about and the value I need to deliver to that audience is so much higher than that. I think that creating content for those audiences would be easier than for a public audience. And I think to, to pile on to that, I think something that a lot of people feel is, you know, they're going to say they're scared, but, but I think a lot of people are scared to put content out publicly for everyone to, to consume. And when you're able to say, Hey, this is not for the whole world, right?
Speaker 2 00:08:34 This is for these 20 or 200 or 2000 people that I want to grant access to this content. To that you're able to say a lot more with a lot more conviction and a lot more confidence because you know that it's not going to be, you know, somebody trolling you on Twitter after you put out an episode for the whole world to hear, it's only for these certain people that you have a lot of kind of comfort around. So I think that this kind of emotional concept of, of the content creation difference between a public conventional podcast and a private podcast is really something.
Speaker 1 00:09:05 Uh, yeah. I don't know if I said it on this podcast or maybe even on our, it's probably on our YouTube channel for sure. I, I mentioned this, but there are some technical hurdles to get, to get a podcast set up. There's no doubt about it. You know, no matter how easy we say it is a castle, you get why you have to set up with Apple. He has a setup with Google. You have to get some technical equipment set up. And then there's a thought process. Like you said, that weight on your shoulders to say, I really want to do something good here. I want to make sure people are impressed because you are putting it out into the world. And I said this on, I think, again, one of our videos, if you're unsure of that whole process, like you're, you're, you are kind of coy to just launch this stuff out there, just do a private podcast.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 And that, that whole weight, that there's a technical weight that's lifted from your shoulders. Like, you don't need to submit it to Apple. You don't need an Apple account right now. You don't need a Google account. You don't need to do all this stuff. And you can just have people subscribe with their email address, or even use our private, we have the private link, and it's a link that you can share with everybody. And it's not submitted to Apple. People can still subscribe to it. It's not associated to an email address, but there's still, that's different to different methods. You can use to get this, this creation out without that worry of, like you said, just being out into the world and maybe you're not ready yet for it. And maybe your show takes a different tact and you want to relaunch, it's a lot harder to make that pivot publicly for some creators.
Speaker 1 00:10:28 And if you can do it privately, why not? Why not just start, you know, private because largely in the early days you're going to have very few listeners and that's okay. That's okay. Those are the pieces you have to sort of work through. But also it's to answer one of the things that you said, I look at it as that private podcast as I'm in the room with everyone. So there's no, I don't know, stage stagefright, you know, to a degree that's just like, we're all in it. Like the way I think of it is we're all in the room. I'm going to share this piece of advice that I heard. And that's the way that I approach it. It's not, again, it's not up on a stage with production and lighting and sound. It's Hey, we're all here. Here's this little piece of information I wanted to tell you.
Speaker 2 00:11:09 I think that the, the concept of like a single private feed for people to subscribe to is something that we might gloss over a fair bit. Um, and this might kind of get into the conversation of tools around private and premium podcasting that they'll get into. But, you know, we talk a lot about individual private subscribers. So I'm an invite,
[email protected] to my private podcast. Matt gets his own special link that only he should have access to. And if Matt ever does something bad and I want to remove him from my podcast, I can him individually, but we also have a lot and maybe even more, but certainly a lot of customers coming to us saying, I want a thing that my church group or my rotary club can all access via the same link. You know, if people leave, it's not super sensitive information, but I don't want it to be public.
Speaker 2 00:12:01 I want it to be a little bit controlled, but I don't want to have to go through the, you know, the process of like individually subscribing that unique email addresses to my private podcast, this kind of global private feed is a great way to do this. We have people embedding this private feed on like an intranet site, like on their internal company site, on their church, you know, member group or in a Facebook group or something like that. And as a way to give everybody who wants access to this, but only people that are kind of in your world already to where it's not something that's able to be put in Apple podcasts or Google podcasts or something like that. So just from a tooling perspective, we talk a lot about inviting individual private subscribers, which is the most kind of fine grain control way of doing a private podcast. But I wouldn't overlook depending on use case, especially that global private feed that we give everyone to say like, Hey, if you have a place where you have a lot of confidence that people they're going to respect, you know, what's going on with your private podcast, it could be a really good option again, to kind of just lower that barrier, right? Say, Hey, this is the podcast, go subscribe. This is the link to everybody use it.
Speaker 1 00:13:03 And if you zoom out, and this is a conversation that you and I get into a lot internally in our meetings is it's delivering this audio. So put podcasting aside, which is that either that like one-to-one relationship where you're creating content and it's your yet, or whatever, or doing an interview, or you, you know, you're doing like this group discussion kind of thing. If you put that aside, private podcasts can also help deliver just audio content. So the other day I was talking to somebody, so it could be a little audio course. It could be an audio book. And for me, it's not just that delivering across that medium, it's getting that power back. Like where do you turn to, you know, what other platforms this is me sort of obviously being biased to cast those, but like, what other platform could you turn to and say, I want to launch a public podcast, a private podcast and an audio book, you know, all in the same place.
Speaker 1 00:13:58 It's a largely the same concept. People are subscribing. They're getting this, these audio files from you, whether it's paid or free, or however you decide to set it up here, there's so much flexibility. And there's so much opportunity in this space to create different content and to deliver it in different contexts. That I think that audio is just great as much as I love video and YouTube audio is just great. It's so flexible. Which I guess, again, I'm just circling back to why social audio has kicked up so much is because it's easy to start and you don't have to literally don't have to have clothes on because you don't have to be in front of a video camera.
Speaker 2 00:14:35 We've heard two different things recently, um, around kind of the, the contrary argument to social audio. And, you know, again, I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I think that they both fall into that. There is a right tool for the piece of content you want to create and right. The right tool and right. Kind medium. Right. And so it's audio video, email blog, post, maybe one is the kind of synchronous nature of social audio, right. If you're not there at noon Eastern, when that thing comes on, you miss it, right. There's no download it later or get it off the website or get a transcript or whatever. Like it's there it's live if you miss it tough luck. And that's, I think some of the appeal of it is it is this kind of connected community feel. But the other one is that, and this is kind of related to the synchronous nature of things.
Speaker 2 00:15:21 Is it, it has to be audio, right? So if you are, if you're, you know, hanging out with your kids and it's the evening and you've got Netflix on and stuff, but this thing comes on, you might, uh, you might read a quick blog post about this topic, right? You might read a Twitter thread about this thing, but you're not going to turn the audio on, on your phone to, to tune into this thing. You know, when you got Netflix go into you're on the couch with your family. So, so I think that like those two things of like the, the synchronous nature and the, in a sake, almost, almost like intrusiveness to other things you could be doing, but, but you can't kind of multitask and do this thing kind of on the side. Like you could read a piece of written content, which I think are both for me, the positives of what we do at podcasting is that it can be when you want.
Speaker 2 00:16:04 And there's always this piece of written content that goes along with it, which is the show notes, and it's always on your website. So, so like, I think those two things are like, you have this thing, if you want to tune in right now, when it, when it downloads, you can, that's great. If you want to consume it when you want. That's great. And I think that's why we see so many people coming to this medium from so many different places. And I think, you know, we named the company cast dose because there could be a time where, what we do is not podcasting anymore. Right? Like I think the name podcasting still fits for this delivery of audio, but it could be something else, you know, it could be that let's call it the audio message or something in the future. Right. And like podcasting, maybe isn't just as a proper description of what this media will turn into in the future. Certainly blogging never, never caught on. Right. But, but, but that kind of thing is, is kind of how I, how I think about this evolution is that like, yeah, we're, we're just delivering audio messaging and it's a super interesting place to be as we're kind of at the forefront of this change in the space and, and helping folks, you know, create this content connect and connect with our audience.
Speaker 1 00:17:12 There's also a certain set of you kind of jogged my memory there, you know, testing out clubhouse, testing out Twitter spaces, being in Twitter spaces. Uh, recently there's another certain set of pressure. Even as a passive listener, there's a certain set of pressures there. Right? So for instance, I joined a Twitter space the other day to somebody that you and I both know, and there's tons of people in this room, they were doing a product announcement, right. I want to think they call them rooms. They call them spaces where there's tons of people in this space and they were doing Q and a, and then I joined in this Q and a section. And then, you know, the host was like, Oh, you know, Matt, Minero's just joined. Um, Matt, if, you know, raise your hand, if you want to, you want to talk or all this, this stuff.
Speaker 1 00:17:48 And then like five minutes by, and then their coach was like, I think Matt's afraid to talk. No, Matt was actually cleaning his office. Right. So, you know, Matt, isn't joining, but there's like this, uh, you know, undue pressure. And then in the Twitter space I was at yesterday, there was a gentleman, like every time somebody new joined the space, because the cool thing with the Twitter space, not to make this a, an ad for Twitter spaces, but you can click on somebody's profile obviously, and you can see their Twitter bio, and he was asking questions of everyone joining the room. So then it's just kind of like, there's dead silence for those people who don't want to talk. And there's this just like that awkwardness. Right. You know, like somebody calls on you and you're not prepared at a, at a conference. And you're just like, ah, I don't want to talk right now. This is like that interesting other pressure that you might not realize is there, but it's kind of there then all of a sudden somebody calls on you and like what, um, I'm eating a cheeseburger. Right. I don't have time to talk.
Speaker 2 00:18:40 Yeah, I do. I do think it's people's mindset that they consume only are for the most part, this kind of audio. Right. And the interaction with that is, is not something that a lot of people expect. I do think that that is the one thing that social audio and, and these kinds of platforms really have the potential to do differently than conventional podcasting is that conventional broadcasting is a one-way street for the most part. And if they're able to have this dialogue and responses and live, you know, dialogue, that could really be interesting, but, but I think that they would have to change people's perspective of what they're getting into with that before you, as a listener are ready to say, Hey, I'm going to get into this thing. And it's going to be more like a webinar or a live zoom call, but just audio to where I will be called on and I can answer. And it's a two way street.
Speaker 1 00:19:26 The thing that we haven't talked about is, so we've talked about everything from like a marketer, maybe a creator, a content creator perspective, but from the, and you touched upon it with like the removal of the email address, the person no longer gets access to that members only podcast, but from a company's perspective, which we have direct experience with, with big brands who want to use private podcasting to communicate their message or for sales enablement or for a human resource education, that kind of thing. Having company only podcasts have proven to be a huge thing over the course of 2020, we're trying to really hone in that sort of step away experience, right? Get your customer or get your employees away from the computer right away from the video camera, because largely we're all kind of burnt out from that just to consume the meeting notes.
Speaker 1 00:20:16 We don't need to be all in a zoom room. Sure. If it's a keynote, the CEO wants to come down and broadcast the message makes sense. Or from your, you know, your sales meetings, you want to see and interact with people. But if you're giving out like educational content, you know, one way con it's just, this is stuff that we don't need to all be on video for give your employees a chance to get away from that computer. And that's massive these days. And you can only do that with audio. Cause you throw your phone in your pocket and you just get away, put your headphones on, or just listen to it on speaker. These things are unmatched and going to be even going to be even more. I think the experience is going to change a lot for meetings and in-person corporate events for the foreseeable future because of everything that,
Speaker 2 00:20:58 What happened here. I think the consensus from, from the discussions we have with, with large companies that are getting involved in private podcasting for, for them internally, right? So this is, you know, company X wants to have a podcast internally only for their sales team. Only kind of driven by the HR team for, for everybody to listen to, but only for employees of the company, what the feeling that we're getting from a lot of these big brands is, is that it's always a joke like when COVID is over, right? It's like when you live in the lottery, right? But when COVID is over, a lot of companies will ask people to go back in the office. At least some, a lot of companies will stop being entirely remote. And a lot of companies will. On the other hand, take a lot of the things that we've learned from being remote for the last year, it'll be a year and a half or two years by the time, you know, this is all over the things that we've learned about.
Speaker 2 00:21:49 We wrote working remotely and more asynchronously and carry them over into the in-person world. And so I think what that means when I think about corporate communications is again, it's like the right tool for the job, the right medium for the job, right? This, you know, quarterly update does not need to be a video call with at 37 slides. It needs to be a 15 minute monologue by the CEO that everybody can listen to when they're walking the dog, you know, it's just the right experience, the right way for you to consume that content does not have to be 9:00 AM on Monday, that everybody dials into the zoom call, it can be, Hey, you know, listen to this and Oh, by the way, you know, we're using Casta. So if you're a private subscriber, we're able to tell when you download it and listen to that episode.
Speaker 2 00:22:36 And Oh, if you're using our mobile app, that's coming out in a few weeks, we'll to tell how long you listened to that episode as well, giving that kind of fine grain data for companies. And, you know, the creators to say like, Hey, I've created this content. Are people actually listening to it? Right. Because I think that's one of the massive questions of conventional podcasting is, okay. My analytics say that, you know, 325 people in Detroit listened to this podcast, but what the heck does that mean? Right. And with private podcasting and individual private subscribers, you get a lot more data about who's listening to those episodes, at least. And again, with our mobile app, that's coming out here in a few weeks. Exactly. When people listen, how long they listen. And a lot of that fine grain detailed that, that historically we've not been able to get from conventional podcasting.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 So I think, especially when you start thinking about the applications of almost using the podcasting system, like cast us as a, a learning management tool. So, you know, folks that have used something like teachable in the past to get a ton of data about course completions and how long somebody's watched a video and what they did next and stuff like that, you're able to get that detail and that level of, of detail about completions and engagement from a platform like ours, to where you're able to tell a lot more about what's working. And I think that's something that our customers are really excited about because it lets them make more data-driven decisions on their content. And I think that's something that we all have struggled with a lot in podcasting. Is there just not a lot of really super accurate data on what's really resonating with folks and then
Speaker 1 00:24:07 Perspective, it's the same thing it's like, like you said, that both a big brand or a small creator, uh, is going to want to see are people actually listening, how long are they listening to make the right decisions? You know, and it all sort of get reinvested into the next piece of content. It'd be interesting to see if people only listen to 20% of the, uh, the company keynote, uh, we should, we should launch a Castle's company keynote every month here and just see how many people listen to the old episode of you talking. Uh, which is funny. I was just reading the, um, the recent, uh, sounds profitable newsletter from Brian Barletta. And he was doing some testing on, on how places that stream podcasts count downloads and some platforms, if you listen to one second of a podcast, it counted, which I found kind of interesting people didn't really listen to the whole thing. Uh, but with private podcasting, you can get a lot more detailed there. You can see the length of the show and, and get the, uh, get the stats directly. It's an exciting time in this podcasting world. Uh, and I'm, I'm excited just personally to use a private podcasting for some of the stuff that I have going on and then be able to present it to other folks, the teased, the, the mobile app when we get a little bit of a refresh coming to right. Of, uh, something in castles.
Speaker 2 00:25:24 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, we, you know, we'll, we'll foreshadow a little bit, uh, a few things that are coming, but, but really just to, to share, I think where our focus is and where our minds are as a company around around this. So yeah, I mean, we're, we're in the final stages of developing a cross platform, mobile app. So for iOS and Android, that is designed specifically for use with private podcasting. So you, as the creative of pirate podcasts, we'll be able to invite people to download the Castillo's mobile app. They will log in with their email address, get a kind of magic link authenticate into the app, and then instantly kind of get all of the private podcasts that they have subscribed to platform wide on our end. So not just from creator a or B or C, but if they've subscribed to several different private podcasts on us, they're able to get all those in one place.
Speaker 2 00:26:15 And I think the beauty of this is as easy as we try to make it for, for people that aren't maybe as familiar with what an RSS feed is and how to subscribe to a private podcast. Cause it's not, you know, it's about three clicks I think, on, on our system. And that's about as easy as we can make it with this. It's literally download this app and log in and you get all this stuff. So I think the, the barrier to getting onboarded as a private subscriber is potentially much lower with a mobile app. And then if, as I look forward, you know, six or 12 months, it's okay, like there's this mobile app experience that you as a creator have with your listeners. Now, what other kinds of things can we allow you to offer those listeners in a mobile app experience? You know, so things like, again, that interaction, like what if they could leave you a voicemail?
Speaker 2 00:27:05 What if you could send them a quiz? What if you could give them like push notifications and kind of inspirational updates? So those are things that we're thinking about when it comes to comes to the mobile app, you know, right now it's going to be, and I think for a long time it will be a tool for delivering content mostly, but mostly audio content here at first, at least to your private subscribers. And then I think as we look down the road, the next kind of really big horizon is, is you being as a content creator, being able to charge money for access to that private podcast. And so, you know, Patrion is the model that a lot of folks know and are familiar with is, Hey, you know, my Patrion and then get this private feed and all this kind of stuff. You know, what, if you could just say, Hey, go to audience.cast.com/join.
Speaker 2 00:27:49 Don't go there. It doesn't exist. But what if you could go there? And you know, we, as the content creators could say, Hey, for five or 10 bucks a month, you get our exclusive content. We're going to release two or five or whatever episodes a month that only people that pay for for access can get, and you deliver that right. Via the mobile app again. So yeah, I mean, those are, those are the places that as a company we're really excited about and are looking and are actively developing tools around to enable creators, to have more control. I mean, I met you, you said it right. It's like, it's just more control over your content who has access to it, how it's distributed. And then I think like the, the big one is like you having the confidence to say these things to only a specific group of people. I think that is missed a lot.
Speaker 1 00:28:37 I'm excited. It's an exciting time. If you want to learn more about our private podcast offering email us,
[email protected]. We'd love to hear your feedback. Don't forget to register for free on our Academy academy.casos.com. Learn more about private podcasting experience, private broadcasting by joining our private podcast over
[email protected] youtube.com/ that's really that's where you'll see my face for radio every single day. Don't forget to subscribe to that, Greg, thanks for hanging out today and doing this podcast.
Speaker 2 00:29:08 My pleasure, Matt, I would just, I would just add to that if folks are using private podcasting in a way, or for an application that we have not talked about either in this episode or previous ones, we would love to hear about it. So yeah, as, as Matt mentioned, you know, shoot us a message. If you want to even better record a little voicemail, stick it in Dropbox or Google drive or something and shoot it over to us. We'd love to include some of these kinds of use cases and applications of private podcasting that folks are putting into place for their, their business and their brands. So if folks are, are, are, you know, again, it's, it's an evolving, if folks are using this in ways that we're not talking about, and you want to share that, please do. We'd love to hear about it.
Speaker 0 00:29:47 Awesome stuff. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And we'll see you in the next episode.
