Speaker 0 00:00:05 The podcasting world is seeing what I'll call major excitement, major excitement, while you can't see me. I'm ramping that with air quotes in these last few months to the past year from stats like most podcasts launch in a year, major podcast acquisitions, all the way to the explosion of social audio. It almost feels like the whole industry is bursting at the seams to push this craziness even further. I'm writing this intro the day before. Apple's next major announcement for what is traditionally reserved for iTunes and or other audio things. So we'll see whatever that might be. And Oh, by the way, Facebook threw their hat into the podcasting ring. Surprise, surprise, suffice to say it's an exciting time to be in podcasting. Espree Devora, the host of women in tech podcast. The, we are LA tech podcast. One of the faces of the clubhouse apps icon, speaking of social audio and well let's face it.
Speaker 0 00:00:53 There's so much cool stuff. I couldn't list it all here. She joins us today to talk about being a creator in this space. Podcasting is our blank canvas as audio creators, and as spree will teach us today, it's up to us to fill that canvas with the art we love and leave an impact on our audience. You're listening to the audience podcast, your home to stories and lessons for podcasters, looking to take their show to the next level for people just getting started with podcasting to brands and celebrities monetizing their audio experience. The audience podcast has it all, never missed another show by subscribing at castles.com/subscribe that's casos.com/subscribe. That link might literally change tomorrow when Apple releases something new. Okay, let's talk to a spree Guevara on podcasting. Everybody. Welcome back to the audience podcast as always. I'm your host, Matt joined by a special guest today as spree Devorah spree. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 1 00:01:45 Hello. Hello. Excited to be here.
Speaker 0 00:01:47 I, I just got to tell you, I just got to come out and throw out all the cards onto the table. I was consuming four episodes of yours all at the same time, listening to you getting interviewed by a whole bunch of people all at once. And I'm like writing down notes. I'm like, why am I, why am I so nervous about this, about this podcast today, I'm trying to get everything. And it was like a rollercoaster ride. I was listening to one that you were talking about, like dating. Then it was the next was like the LA tech scene. And then we went to like your adventure backpack. And I'm like, I don't even know where to begin with this stuff with introducing is free to our audience, but real quick, for folks who don't know who you are, who you are, what is it that you're doing with? We are LA tech. And what else do you have going on in the internet?
Speaker 1 00:02:32 I think the main theme amongst everything mad in, in the internets and in life in general is that I look to champion people. I feel a really strong connection to inspiring people or showing people the pathway to believe in themselves. And so whether it's, we are LA tech unifying, the Los Angeles tech community, and that inspiration was created because I'm born and raised in LA. And I wanted to showcase LA tech companies. And in order for them to have that, like leg up women in tech is the show I do globally. And again, that's for listeners to walk away feeling if she can do it. So can I, it all stems back to like, believe in yourself when I teach people how to podcast it's, I'm teaching people like how to spread it, your your message. So more people can believe in themselves. You know, it's constantly like, how do I create this domino effect of everybody believing in ourselves? So that at least the good people, the assholes can go on an Island somewhere. I hope that's okay to say you can just believe me.
Speaker 0 00:03:36 Yeah, no, that's totally fine. I was listening to one of your episodes that you were being interviewed on. It was a few years back and I think it was talking about, and I know it was, it was talking about, we are LA tech and the gentleman that was interviewing you was like, well, I mean, he didn't say these in these exact words, but he was like, did you, did you copy this idea from someplace else, some other city in the country? And you said, no, like I needed this. So I built it. And that just like struck a chord with me. Cause it's like for better or for worse, I do the same thing. It's like, we need an audience to market this to, well, I guess I'll just roll up my sleeves and start a podcast. And some other people might be like, I'll just do a Google ads and go like down this route and do targeted. What is it about that? I'm just going to build it and people will show up. Cause I'm going to go sell that to people. What is that about you?
Speaker 1 00:04:22 I don't know about people will show up. You can't guarantee whether anyone is going to show up or not, but I do feel that first part of it, which is like my newest pod podcast. I'm coming out with the Bragg podcast, business women reaching all inspiring greatness. Why am I creating that show? Because I think that women, as a culture, we don't share our achievements enough foot for whatever reason. Right? We are LA tech. I built my, the first action sports social network and I raised money and it was a really grueling, isolating process. And it would have been really nice to have a community of non-biased people to just want to elevate me. And so I'm just constantly looking for how to create these empowering, um, environments for others when I'm inspired by something that I think just isn't right in the world, you know, will people show up to those things that I create no idea, but do I feel good about the purpose behind them? A hundred percent.
Speaker 0 00:05:19 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I it's one of those things like that, it's the thing that really, I don't want to say plagues the entrepreneur, but these are things like a normal person would just not want to do it. Really? No, no, there's no, there's no certainty here yet. Folks like you and I were like, we're going to build it. Yeah. People might not show up, but we're certainly not afraid to take that chance. And this goes for either starting a business or starting a podcast. Cause there's a lot of people out there who want to start a podcast. And I know, cause I hear it from, from them when they sign up here at castles, they go, yeah, I signed up. But I just started to think about it. And, and I don't think anyone wants to listen to me. No people will want to listen to you. It might just be, you know, your mom for the first couple of months, but eventually that audience comes around because you just stick through it. You just ever last,
Speaker 1 00:06:03 Just before this interview, I taught a class on clubhouse about podcasting and I shared this experience that I had a few years ago, I was listening to someone and they shared the universe, gives us certain talents. And our purpose is humans is to, is to serve and to unite. Even though I know that can be really murky at times. Like that's the core essence of what it is to be human. And if our purpose is to share those talents with others, it's selfish to let fear get into the way to let like ego get into the way of that. So if we just stay focused on our purpose, like for the women in tech podcast, my purpose is legitimately to elevate women, to give women a shot, to be seen, to be heard, you know, to be acknowledged like, does it matter whether I get five listeners on day one or a hundred listeners on day one or how long it takes?
Speaker 1 00:06:56 No, it's, it's about showing up to the purpose. It's about us showing up ourselves. It's not about who else shows up as well. When you're talking about who else shows up as well, then that becomes about, are you building a sustainable business model? It's a whole other department, right? But when you first start a podcast, just show up to yourself, you know, show up with your talents and share that and see what happens. And then start doing the experiments start. You're doing the podcast experiment, you know, start the experiments of whether it's promoting yourself on the various like tech channels or whatever it may be. They're just a series of experiments and you see what works and you see what doesn't, and then you do more of what works and you cut out the things that don't work and that's how you build your audience. But like why you show up in the first place, because you're showing up to the mission to the purpose, to your, why
Speaker 0 00:07:47 Do you feel like this? I know you're probably subjective to the answer on this, but do you think podcasting is at least for you the best body of work for someone to create awareness, to have therapy sessions with themselves to have like frequently answered questions or are you sort of agnostic where it's like, Hey, you can go with a blog, you can go with a newsletter, you could go with the YouTube channel. It doesn't really matter. As long as you do it, what do you feel like podcasting is, is really the best thing for, for somebody.
Speaker 1 00:08:16 Podcasting is just like a canvas. It just depends. What canvas would you like to paint on? I, I like to paint audio. Why? Because one, I don't want to wear makeup all the time and have, I want to stay in my PJ's, you know? And so that's why I have an audio first podcast. You know, I also feel for me, audio, first podcast is more attainable. It's less production than video. All these things. Mr. Beast. Who's one of the most popular YouTube burrs. He's madly in love with YouTube. It's like in his cells of his body, that's what he cares about. So find the, the medium, that the canvas that you can't help yourself, but you like needs to paint on it. Right. And then that's how you choose the platform. That's right for you.
Speaker 0 00:09:02 It's hard for me to think back. I have a podcasting for eight years. It's hard for me to think back to that, that first episode and just try to relive like some of the fear that I had, like doing it and like, you know, hitting, publish and hitting record for the first time. And from the outsider looking in, we see, you know, if you're just on Twitter and you see people say, yeah, just go and start a podcast. It's super easy. Well, it's not easy for everyone. And there's a little bit of a fear factor of like, how do I like put this together? How do I do it? And then you see everyone say, well, you can have great content or no, one's going to pay attention to you. And then there's, people's like, well, your first episodes suck. So you're just getting it. And all of these levels, like, wait a minute, I'm supposed to just push out content and just do it, but then it's going to suck and I have to be great. And when do I get great? Is there some kind of foundation or guide that you give to people to say, look, it's 10 episodes, 20 episodes until you really hit that stride or anything that you point to for anybody you advise.
Speaker 1 00:09:59 Yeah. I think it's about sharing your journey, your story, even before you start the podcast. So it's not about being great. Like we're always evolving. I'm evolving all the time. I'm not great yet. And I hope that I'll never be at great because that I want to keep getting better and better and better. Right. And there's so many successful podcasts who have horrible audio quality and they're very popular because people are super into their content. So it just depends on the formula. That's right for you. But the commonality that really works and, and you'll hear this in any marketing class is having a story that people really align with, that they participate in. So if you share like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a podcast and you share those fears or you share what it's about on your other platforms where your network already exists, whether it be Facebook or Twitter or Instagram. So people could start to be a part of that journey with you. That's how you create a great experience because really what a great experience is, is having the most connective experience. And so it's not actually creating the greatest audio quality or being the greatest host or having the greatest script and greatest production and greatest blah, blah, blah. It's about having the most connective experience, which you can start before you even start speaking into the mic.
Speaker 0 00:11:19 Do you have like a stamp or a signature you put on your shows that really makes it unique to you and to how you approach, like everyone says, Oh man, I don't want to really. I say everyone, but I do three interview shows and everyone I talked to, they say, I can't believe I'm going to do another interview show. And we all try to have our little fingerprint or little signature that makes it slightly different. Do you have something like that, that you do like a particular recipe that you go into every episode saying like, this is how I'm gonna approach it. And this is my way of doing it.
Speaker 1 00:11:50 Well, one, I stand, you can see him standing right now. Some I stand where most people don't stand. I actually haven't seen anybody else stand. I also channel. So there's a musician. A lot of you probably know him, Steven Tyler, then I'll get to the point of why I'm sharing this Steven Tyler. And he used to do these concerts and he'd have a mic and he'd have all these ribbons that is Mike. And then he, the, uh, there's the WWE and these wrestlers would like run out and they'd, you know, announce them. And wrestling was like my favorite thing growing up. So when I'm at the mic at the beginning, I'm looking to create an energizing elevating experience, right? So my uniqueness is I'm standing and I'm like three, two, one, well, back to the, we are LA tech podcast. And I go with like this energized place and I'm channeling those things. And that creates a more elevating experience for not just my listeners, but for my guests too. They're like, Oh, I'm awake. I'm here, I'm present. And so if there was one thing to my format,
Speaker 0 00:12:50 As I heard that on your, on your podcast, I was like, Oh God, I'm not gonna be able to keep up with a reporter on the show. I don't even know how I'm going to do it. Speaking of YouTube, I feel like we've been talking now for a little bit. We've got a little bit of rapport here. I went to your YouTube channel five months ago, you had a video that went out and you said you were going to keep publishing that, that YouTube channel. But I haven't seen, and I haven't seen another video. Are you going to do another one,
Speaker 1 00:13:17 Two things I want to balance for a second and say one thing, talking about being connective in a unique format and all this stuff and sharing the journey is hello. How you reached out to me, like amazing. I mean, are you comfortable sharing? Is that okay? A hundred percent. Yeah. First of all, I've, I've a popular show. I'm not exaggerating. I probably get like a hundred random emails a day. Like of people saying all sorts of things, like how they're entitled to my time, or they should be on my show or whatever. Like it's so many and they're all templated and then comes you. And I'm like, Whoa. So can you share?
Speaker 0 00:13:54 Yeah. So as somebody who's been a podcast for a while, same thing, you, you get these real, like cold pitches it's from someone's assistant assistant, and you can tell it's been outsourced. You can tell it's template size. Sometimes it just says first name, you know, comma. And you're like, what did you even try? Did you look anything up? And you know, they've never listened to any episode of the show and, and I didn't want to be that person doing the same thing. And I also don't want to re I know you're, you're popular and I know you have popular shows and that that's not even it it's just that when I came across you and I first saw you in clubhouse, and then I was looking at stuff on Twitter, I was like, this person, I want to talk to her from that creative angle that, that deep podcasting angle. So what I did is I just recorded a video, tried to, I think I did three takes of that video to try to keep it under a minute, not scripted. I just like ripping riffing off the, off the cuff. And then I just shot a video and I just sent it to you. And I didn't really hard pitch you in the email. I was like, Hey, if interested, I made this quick video for you. And you said, yes. So that was, that was really the,
Speaker 1 00:14:57 Yeah, but no one makes a video. Like I do that too. I'm like, Whoa. And it's so crazy. There's these great tools too, to make video. I mean, the easiest one is loom. Like, I don't remember what you sent me with. I don't know if it was a loom YouTube. I use YouTube. Oh, you used YouTube. Yeah. But there's like, there's loom. There's tons of ways. And it was such a sincere, remember I said connective and so getting baggy. That's what made me think of it because you're talking about YouTube. Yes. I was going to do it. Remember I said audio first, because like, it's easier. So again, I just felt there's a few things going on of like, why I haven't yet kept up the YouTube, which I am disappointed in, but, um, one, a lot more production. Right. And too time management calendar blocking, making sure I'm okay.
Speaker 1 00:15:43 As a creator in the process. If I have too many things, if I am working from being in depleted or a place of my reserves, that is not being the best I can be to serve others with how I want to serve them. And unfortunately like the YouTube kind of falls there where I don't like, I need to prioritize my self-care and my mental wellbeing before I prioritize that. And I didn't have a great plan in place. And the production, there's still some minor production on the end was like too many steps. But honestly, Matt you're inspiring me. I'm like, I got to get back on it. Yeah. But really it's just like, how do you formulate? I call it arc. When I teach a podcast in class, I, I call it architecting the world of your podcast, but how do you architect your life so that it makes sense to everything that you want to achieve.
Speaker 1 00:16:37 And this is something author James clear talks about in his book, atomic habits. And he talks about like, if you want to drink more water, have a water. Like, I don't have a water bottle like by me right now, but I do want to drink water. So am I architecting my life to drink more water? If even right now, I don't have a water bottle on my office desk. Right? We want to architect our life so that it makes it very simple. He has this interesting thing that I love. He says, people think that there's something wrong with being lazy. He said, there's nothing wrong. We're all we all inherently want to be lazy, which we should be. We should be simplifying everything so that we could be lazy about everything and still getting more done. So it's like if I had the water bottle here, I could be lazy about the water because I just have to pick it up. But now I have to walk into the kitchen, go pour a glass of wine, you know? So how do I architect my life in order to produce more YouTube videos? I have not architected it yet. Accordingly.
Speaker 0 00:17:33 Part of my responsibility here at Casos is I do a lot of videos for our YouTube channel. And 90% of them are tutorial videos. That's how to do stuff with Casos. It's how to do stuff with in the world of podcasting. And this afternoon I did exactly what I tell myself. I should not do. I just sat down, no outline, just all rattling around in my head. I'm like, okay, I am going to do this thing about WordPress and podcasting. And I wasted hours, two hours recording. And I deleted every single one and I felt drained. I felt defeated. Right. And all it is is it's a tutorial video. This is this isn't Casey Neistat, or insert your favorite YouTube vlogger. Who's doing edits and jump cuts and all this stuff, Peter McKinnon, like it's none of that. It's just a screen, the camera and my keyboard. And it was just defeating because I didn't prepare myself for video. So video. Yeah. You can't cheat video. You can't cheat the YouTube, like, like you, like you might be able to do with audio. Cause at least you don't see yourself.
Speaker 1 00:18:32 Even things that Matt is small as right now, it's, you know, the middle of the afternoon for me. So the lighting comes in. So I'm well lit, but let's say I left the, the YouTube video to like five o'clock at night or six. Now I'm having a lighting issue, you know, like there's just like, and I have lights and stuff, but now I have to set up all the lights. Yeah. I can't just turn on the room light, you know, or maybe I can, and maybe I'm overthinking it and it's okay to come out with like a bad quality looking thing because the information is so good. You know, that's the thing just, I mean, Matt, I think consistency over, like, why haven't I come out with YouTube because I'm not doing it. I'm not showing up for myself. Like I think the element that is most important for all of us is consistency. So I'm legit not being consistent in that area. I could give you the million. I already gave you like half a million reasons of why I'm not being consistent. But at the end of the day, I think it's better just to get the thing out and shipped than nothing at all. So like, don't take lead on my YouTube, but now, you know, that'd be having another YouTube coming out soon.
Speaker 0 00:19:42 Everyone, at least everyone in the podcasting space. Everyone's favorite thing in social audio. I mean, you're one of the faces of the clubhouse icon, right? Is what's at least in your Twitter bio.
Speaker 1 00:19:52 No, that's, that's accurate. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:56 That's true. Yeah. What are your thoughts like, and I'll just, I'll lay the table with, I feel like an old school podcaster where I'm like, I don't like content that disappears. Like I'm not a big Instagram stories person. Like I feel like, man, if I'm going to spend all this time making an Instagram story, I might as well make a video that I can put on my YouTube channel. That'll be saved and searched and all this stuff. Same thing with clubhouse and audio. I feel like man, I'd rather just do a podcast because it's there. I save it. But I mean, clubhouse is boom and Twitter space is booming. I was on your clubhouse. I think it was last week or two weeks ago. And it was awesome. I mean, so much knowledge, so many people in the room. So what's your thoughts on social audio versus podcasting as a creator?
Speaker 1 00:20:33 Yeah, I think again, it's all about canvases and what you want to achieve. One of my favorite features in clubhouse is actually the private social feature where you press start a room and you press social. And that means only about four or five people within your we'll even see the room. And then you have a co it's almost like having a conference call, but with like a personal life conference call. So I think everything has its own purpose. And it's about us defining how that, or if it should fit into our lives. I think where we get messed up is when we're like, Oh my God, I have to be on everything. Oh my gosh. And then th the technology is controlling us rather than us dictating. How does let the tech serve us rather than us serving the tech? And I think the tech wants us to serve the tech.
Speaker 1 00:21:21 That's how they get more advertising dollars. That's how they get more growth. That's how they get valued. And we as humans need to somehow put interference on the dopamine drips and decide like, how can this technology best serve us in what we're trying to do? So when I'm doing a clubhouse with intention, like how long do I want this room to go on? Rather than just, if anybody knows clubhouse, it goes on for like six hours, eight hours. No, my rooms one hour. Sometimes I'm not so great about an hour, 25 minutes or something. But in the beginning I was doing those eight hour rooms, you know? So it's like you set the boundaries of each of the apps. Um, I'm on Twitter spaces as well. You know, how do I want to utilize Twitter spaces versus clubhouse versus Instagram stories as an artist? How am I telling and sharing my story in a different way in all these channels, how am I serving others?
Speaker 1 00:22:14 How am I serving community? How am I serving myself? So again, that social feature that's serving me in my personal life. That's kind of like hanging out with people at a bar, except you're on the phone, right? The clubhouse podcasting classes that I do, I'm serving the community. And if they want to be a part of the other stuff that I'm involved in, it's a way for them to know that I exist. And it's just a way for me to help empower people, to create a better life for others. Right? If I'm doing a Twitter space, maybe it's just about what is a quote that has really inspired you. And it's a short 15 minute space, and then it's done. If I'm doing an Instagram story, am I sharing the journey again? They're all just canvases and decide which ones you want to paint on and what colors you want to use and how you want to paint and how, how big and elaborate you want to make it, or how small and fast you want to create it.
Speaker 0 00:23:04 Yeah. I mean, your ability to MC room or, or, or host, uh, uh, what do they call it? A stage clubhouse room. What is it? Just the room, your ability to host and move the conversation along was the best that I had heard across clubhouse and Twitter spaces where I've been spending time. And it's so important. That's like the most important part is like, keep it moving, get people in and out. Not in a, like in a strict, like you have 15 seconds go, but just, you know, when the topic is done, you know, when to move someone off, you know, when somebody is raising here and to pull them on. And like you said, be concise in that hour 45 minutes, hour, long time, which is also important in podcasting. Like when somebody does a podcast and it's like, especially if it's a round table of podcasts and it's like, everyone does five minutes of intros. And before you know, it it's an hour long. Yeah. It's like being in college when they were taking attendance back in the day and like, you know, science one Oh one, there's like a thousand people in the class.
Speaker 1 00:24:03 And remember I said, boundaries, like in my rooms, you may have seen, I have a rule, no promos, no, no intros. Why? Because of that, it's not a quality listening experience. It's just all ego-based for each person. And so set the boundaries that you want to set with each technology so that it serves the higher purpose. Remember that just as an, a podcast, a lot of mistake that pod new podcasters make is they think it's all about them. It's not, it's about your audience. It's about the person listening. It's about your future listener. How are you hosting your show in a way that's useful to that listener? Are you keeping the promises that you're making in terms of expectations to the listener when you're editing it, are you cutting out things that wouldn't add value to your listeners life? Are you honoring their time? They're investing in listening to you? What path, what journey are you creating for that listener so that they can stay connected in a way that's comfortable for them? You know, like everything is about who you're serving. It's not about us in our ego, but we get lost in that
Speaker 0 00:25:10 When it comes to podcasting. The previous episode that came out last week, as we record, this was a gentleman named Evo Terra. And he has a podcast called podcast pontifications and he talks about he and I talked about this, a future of podcasting, where you might just go to a podcast host, you might be able to set up a podcast account for free, and it's all backed by advertising. So it's like the YouTube model. You can upload your YouTube video and it's free. You do doesn't charge you anything and you can make ads. And we talked about that model. How do you look at monetization as a podcast creator? And I'll preface that by saying is I always feel like the creator loses. Like, I feel like it's when it's a platform play, the platform wins, the advertiser wins and the creator gets like a nickel, right? For like out of this whole deal. Like, how do you look at podcast monetization, if at all like direct ad sales, monetization, that kind of thing. Do you have any thoughts, any feelings or opinions on that?
Speaker 1 00:26:09 You actually, so I've done sponsored episodes and I've done it successfully. I've also done contributions and I've done membership based business models. The one thing that people get caught up in is they think like, okay, it's just based on my listenership is how I get paid. Like for my shows, I charge a flat fee and that's it. And if you want to work with me, you're in. And if you don't want to work with me, you're out and it's not. And a lot of times when they do this per listenership kind of thing, they're usually taking advantage of the creator. Because especially when you're talking about a podcast and it's for years, like for years, the advertisers getting exposure from this potentially, right. It depends on what kind of technology you're using to incorporate advertising, but let's just assume it's for years. So usually they do.
Speaker 1 00:26:55 I think it, the creator does get undervalued. I wouldn't want a platform to be in control of what I could get paid. There's that option where you can work with the host. I think megaphone gives you advertising opportunities and there's some others that give you advertising opportunities. But I like to be more in control. And furthermore is I'm thinking about not having sponsorship at all moving forward, because I haven't, I've been really proud of the sponsors that I've worked with, like really proud, but I have not enjoyed the operations behind that kind of account management business model. What I prefer is the membership based model. I don't like the contribution model because I feel like even if someone contributes a dollar, then they expect the world, which is frustrating as a creator. But the membership models, I promise you this, I give you this and then you're happy.
Speaker 1 00:27:45 Right? And so I think what, as I've like, kind of reflected on business models quite frequently, I think people want to pay for four things. They want to pay for experience. They want to pay to solve a problem, like a service. They want to pay for a product that also solves whatever problem that they have, where they want to pay for fandom. But they only want to pay for fandom. If you're someone like Pewdie pie or like Jennifer Anniston, it's like super celebrity, right? Contribution. I think people don't inherently want to contribute. I think you have to be at the right space, time and emotional triggering for them to want to contribute. And then when they do contribute, they may contribute a dollar and then it's like really offer the creator. And then I think, you know, paying for product is fine or services fine.
Speaker 1 00:28:30 I particularly like paying for experience. I think that's just the business that I'm in. And so I try to curate all my business models to feed into the experience. So you're valuing my experience at X amount. I'm delivering to you that experience, we're all happy. And it's so clear and so integrity driven. Whereas like, let's say one week you have a sponsor for a toothpaste company. And the next week you have a sponsor for a furniture company. You can't possibly know what the return is going to be for each one, because it's going to change on each one because I'm so into, like, I don't know. I'm just into being a really good person. Like I don't feel that that's just, but that is the way people work. And people usually, whether they call it, grab the bag or whatever, like the cat bag and run, but I don't want to grab the bag and run. I want to like build a relationship with you. And I feel that that's most conducive through experience.
Speaker 0 00:29:24 It's also a level of difficulty for a lot of people. Like a lot of people who I know create podcasts here, there, you know, they see their favorite podcast or they're like, I want to make money just like them. Like I want to have a very popular show and I, and I want to make money and okay, that's, that's fine. You can certainly have that desire and doing the podcast is already difficult if you went and told them, well, now you have to go direct, go do direct ad sales. Wow. How am I going to do that? So we succumb to these, these sort of mold, the algorithms, the platforms that say here's some advertising money and they literally sprinkled pennies on your desk. And like, this is what you get, but you don't have to go out and do direct ads. It just all automatic. Right. Which then forces that, like you said, you want to sell based on that flat fee partnership, not, Hey, I get thousand X amount of thousands of downloads and this is, you know, the CPM and then it'll be 25 cents. You know, you don't want to do that. And a lot of people don't know how to approach that part of it, I guess.
Speaker 1 00:30:21 But now I'm, I just want to do membership because I feel like, I mean, that's what a podcast is. Our listenership is our community. And so why not enhance that experience? It's just, it's so dope. And let like the sponsorship stuff, maybe be a cherry on top if it exists at all, but that's what I'm moving toward as an organization after done. That's, that's the business model that like excites me and energizes me most that I feel best.
Speaker 0 00:30:49 Are you thinking about this for the new podcast or just across all podcasts?
Speaker 1 00:30:52 So my mom told me to call it a sprees world because I have so many podcasts, so, okay. This is a little bit out there and I haven't shared this before. So like, excuse me for the JAG talking that I'm about to share, but essentially I love utilizing podcasting to champion others. So to me, podcasting is like a piece of art. So why should I be told you can't create that piece of art? Like my brag podcast coming out again, it's for women to have a space, to like share their achievements. My women in tech podcast, you know, these amazing stories of women in tech and how they got there and everything else that I want to create that I have in the queue. Why should I not create the art I want to create? Why does the art itself have to be the business? So like for me in creating a sprees world, it's like, how do I create this experience for all of the community? And I'm still like working on it, but the idea is just that like inside my world, you're contributing into that and I'm delivering to you and experience, what is the experience, et cetera. So for th these are all things that I'm working out, but the concept is just that, like, why should I not be able to create the art I want to create?
Speaker 0 00:32:00 When did you, and sort of getting close to the end here, wrapping up, uh, to respect your time, but w when did you become comfortable calling your podcast art? It took me until yesterday, took me to link it to like a year ago to like, you know what? I always felt uncomfortable being like, I'm an artist. Cause I can't like in my brain, I can't draw, I can't paint. I can't take photographs. Like I'm not an artist. And then like eight years into it, I was like, I'm an artist because I just keep evolving and keep changing. I keep doing new things. When did it become apparent to you? That podcasting is an art form? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:32:34 I mean, I don't remember exactly. I just, I just know, like at some point few years ago I started saying that podcasting was like painting audio. So it was probably around that time, but I don't think I truly embraced it as this is my art until recently, even though I saw it as an artistic endeavor, I didn't see it as like, this is my art because I was still doing the sponsorship thing. So it didn't really feel like art when like you're an account manager and like, you know, like it's going to get paid though. So, you know, so like I started to think about what if my art and my business didn't have to have a direct relationship and that's still something like I'm working out. But again, if my business is creating experience experience, and in my case for the tech and startup community globally, and experience doesn't necessarily mean an event or something, it just means experience.
Speaker 1 00:33:33 Like I I'm creating a unique memory or some sort of elevating, um, atmosphere, whether it's introductions or whatever, whatever it may be. Right. And then there's my podcast and my podcast is my art. But the thing that they all have in common is that the community that I feel most connected to is the startup and tech community. Here's like zillions of people around the world, all in the tech startup community, listening to my art. And then I happened to have this business that serves that same market. Now I didn't create it to be a marketing channel. And that's something that still doesn't really sit well with me because that's not why I create it. But from a business point of view, that's what's happening. Does that make sense?
Speaker 0 00:34:15 Yeah, no, a hundred percent. A hundred percent, but you don't mind using it as a broadcast marketing channel, right? You might not have set out to it, but it is something that happens, right. That's like one of the unsung benefits of a podcast. Cause I'm sure your podcast connected you to people that, that you otherwise maybe not have connected to. And there's always like these random opportunities that pop up because of a podcast and you like make a deal with like another business or a customer. It's just like these random things that happen just for the mere fact that you're standing literally and figuratively standing at the end of the day, doing the podcast and like standing the test of time to like, don't give up on it because all this stuff pops up out of nowhere. It's great.
Speaker 1 00:34:55 So I don't mind as long as it's not my why, like as long as my, why stays as an artist and it just utilizing that word that you just use, it just happens. That's fine. But to say I'm creating the podcast to be a marketing channel. Now I'm not saying necessarily there's something like wrong with that because I think every company, like it would be all of them to form a better relationship with their customers to increase customer retention through podcasting. But for me, in my case, I'm creating art. That that's how you know, and I don't think every podcast or needs to be an artist. So as long as my, why stays true to the core ethos of like, why I'm creating each show then, then yeah, because look, it's what you just said earlier. Artists need to have a sustainable business in order to create, keep creating the art.
Speaker 1 00:35:39 There's nothing wrong. And I think as artists, we do feel like there's something wrong with money. This guy that I, that I spoke to, um, I met him on a site called lunch club. I don't know if you know it. It does networking. It's really cool lunch club. I think now it's lunch club.com. It might be lunch club.ai that it's free and it matches you with people to meet. And this guy I met there matches you meet in business. This guy I met there said, this is so funny, Matt. He said, the reason why all the drug dealers and bad people have money. People think that the bad people like are the ones that get all the money and the good people don't get the money. He's like, no, he's like, it's because the bad people usually have a wild love affair with money. They're like rolling in the money, throwing the money over their head, showering themselves in money, smelling the money like the, and then the good people are usually like, money is bad. He's like money doesn't want to play with people who don't want to play with it. That is amazing. And so as artists, we need to fall in love with money too. So the money wants to play with us.
Speaker 0 00:36:45 Yeah. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. That's free Devorah, fantastic conversation. I'm so happy that you spent time talking to the audience podcast today. Where can folks go to engage with you on all the podcasting stuff that you do? Where do you want to send folks to today?
Speaker 1 00:37:02 Yeah, definitely feel free to reach out to [email protected]
or say hello on social at Espree Devora, E S P R E E D E V, like Victor, O R a on all social. And I'm, I'm happy to be supportive of you in your journey and just remember we're all scared. No one has the perfect path and to make sure to take care of yourself in the process.
Speaker 0 00:37:26 There's some amazing stuff. castles.com/audience, follow the audience podcast. Cause we can't say subscribe to the podcast anymore on Apple, follow the on his podcast, castles.com/audience. We'll see you in the next episode.